[{"id":"5358","cataloger_name":["Mozhgan,Nourafkan"],"partnerInstitution":["Simon Fraser University"],"collection_source_collection":["Reading in BC Collection"],"source_collection_label":["Reading in BC Collection"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SFU Library"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":[""],"collection_source_collection_description":["Reading in BC collection was assembled during the late 1970s and ‘80s. There are approximately 1000 tapes in this collection. It consists of the recordings of Canadian and American writers, mostly poets, reading poems, talking, being interviewed, participating in panel discussions, and so on. Most of the recordings were made in BC, but there are some made elsewhere in Canada or the USA. Quite a few of these recordings are unique copies, not to be found elsewhere."],"collection_source_collection_id":["MsC 199"],"persistent_url":[""],"item_title":["bp Nichol interview with Pauline Butling on November 13, 1986 part 2 of 2 #749"],"item_title_source":["cassette and j-card"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Documentary recording"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Copyright Not Evaluated (CNE)"],"creator_names":["Nichol, Barrie Phillip","Butling, Paulina"],"creator_names_search":["Nichol, Barrie Phillip","Butling, Paulina"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/76350280\",\"name\":\"Nichol, Barrie Phillip\",\"dates\":\"1944-1988\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Speaker\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/44560494\",\"name\":\"Butling, Paulina\",\"dates\":\"1939-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Interviewer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Performance_Date":[1986],"material_description":["[{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"../Uploads/1226/Reading in BC_MsC199_749.jpg\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/8 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Stereo\",\"playing_speed\":\"\",\"sound_quality\":\"Excellent\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"T02:28:00\",\"physical_condition\":\"Good\",\"track_configuration\":\"2 track\",\"material_designation\":\"Cassette\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"J-card\",\"other_physical_description\":\"Black and white clear jewel case with J-card\"}]"],"material_designations":["Cassette"],"physical_compositions":["Magnetic Tape"],"recording_type":["Analogue"],"AV_type":["Audio"],"playback_mode":["Stereo"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"749-side-1.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"Stereo\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"T00:45:39\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"43.6 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"32 bit\",\"encoding\":\"WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"749-side-2.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"Stereo\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"T00:45:37\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"43.6 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"32 bit\",\"encoding\":\"WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"1986-11-13\",\"type\":\"Performance Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"J-card\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2221423\",\"venue\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"[Nelson, British Colombia, Canada?]\",\"latitude\":\"49.4931\",\"longitude\":\"-117.2907\"}]"],"Address":["[Nelson, British Colombia, Canada?]"],"content_notes":["SFU BC Readings formatting"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"BP Nichol interviewed by Pauline Butling \\nNovember 13, 1986\\n(Nelson, B.C. ?)\\nside 1: 44:30\\nside 2: 44:30\\nDOLBY B\\npart II\\n#749\",\"type\":\"General\"}]"],"Related_works":["[]"],"_version_":1853670553062211585,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:57.525Z","contents":["Side\tTrack\tNo.\tComments\nOne\t\t009\tSide One begins mid-anecdote by Nichol about giving a copy of Craft Dinner to his father (to whom the book is dedicated)\n\t\t054\tNichol comments on his father attending a reading of his poetry\n\t\t083\tButling re-asks the question about structure (see tape #748) and how the 6 books of The Martyrology interact\n\t\t089\tNichol is not working with a thematic structure; but is working with similar themes that recur in The Martyrology\n\t\t112\tNichol – discusses “Imperfection of Prophecy”, “In the Plunkett Hotel,” The Continental Trance as self-contained ideas; The Book of Hours and structure, “Inchoate Road”\n\t\t144\tButling asks about the circular structure of The Book of Hours as a deliberate structuring.  Discussion ensues about the form of meditation as a circle and The Book of Hours requiring no closure\n\t\t181\tButling: How are you consciously involved in form or are you?\n\t\t188\tBp Nichol cites “In the Plunkett Hotel” as an “in/from” structure that grew from the idea, whereas a more perceptual piece emerges as Nichol writes it and that dictates form, “Inchoate Road”\n\t\t215\tButling: You have to make choices about what you are writing, what is the basis for those decisions?\n\t\t223\tNichol responds that it is the play and the subjects that are arising that dictates form.  What is the piece about?  It is a piece of thinking, and he is trying to make the thinking cohere while not being obvious about it.  Possibilities present themselves: some discussion this\n\t\t256\tButling suggests that as soon as The Martyrology begins to deepen that it immediately goes back to surface\n\t\t259\tNichol says that is a conscious choice because statemental voice is too obvious and he would rather make a leap to something else.  It is a working out of ekstasis, not giving a person his vision in a narcissistic sense, but giving the person an experience of vision\n\t\t289\tThen he will cut to the didactic voice as a relief or a release from the other voice.  This becomes musical pacing as sometimes he will say something rather than show it for the rhythm of the poem\n\t\t290\tNichol on Ondaatje’s “Billy the Kid” poem as an example of this\n\t\t311\tBp Nichol explains that he is primarily led by the ear, and then led visually\n\t\t314\tWhat about morality?  Butling asks\n\t\t339\tNichol complains that much writing becomes a panacea, that writers used to pretend that they were more in control than they were, that literature presented an idea of life being utterly controllable.  Discussion of Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Charles Olson in this vein\n\t\t386\tNichol explains a notion he is working on; that which is unsignable, not because of a failure on the author’s part, but because it lies outside the range of that which is signable (linguistic-signed)\n\t\t395\tHe wants to use the medium of that which is written to talk about that which is unwritable.  He elaborates on presenting an essence, the blank page, not as a blank book, and putting the readers into the frame of mind where they will look at the page in a certain way\n\t\t405\tDiversion into bp Nichol’s expression “real mysteries”\n\t\t423\tNichol’s experience as a therapist and structures and systems that function for individuals; the self as multiple consciousnesses.  Pataphysics and “Probably systems”\n\t\t457\tButling senses absence in Nichol’s early work;’ questions if this is outside the self (Book 1 and 2)\n\t\t459\tNichols discusses alienation from the self as a reason why he was in therapy\n\t\t470\tWriters would create personas as a solution to absence, suggests Nichol\n\t\t479\tNichol’s mistrust of adjectives – all they say is the noun is weak\n\t\t486\tThe pun works like reference, it opens up additional worlds – pun provides multiple chords, like music, which becomes a “packing the noun”\n\t\t502\tNichol discusses the alienation of the self and title The Martyrology, and Books 4, 5 and 6\n\t\t511\tNichol takes on the Christian subtext in “really seriously”\n\t\t516\tNichol says The Martyrology attempts to work out a “no gimme” relationship to the concept of God.  He wants a relationship to God that does not include the notion of heaven, in which he “gets nothing for it”\n\t\t530\tIn the work there is also a tension of looking at that sense of loss historically and at the same time attempting to embrace \n\t\t539\tNichol says that life is in the present, a notion that connects with other ideas in The Martyrology of the dailiness of living and the argument with history\n\t\t543\tNichol’s favourite word in The Martyrology is ‘now’.  A discussion ensues regarding the philosophy of living in the present\n\t\t560\tNichol: The goal of high modernism gets us into trouble because it is to live beyond the moment\n\t\t568\tNichol says, “popular poetry” will talk of this tradition of the 20th century modernists in a way that is antithetical to world peace.  Nichol’s provisional solution is to make the work of art something that has history in it, but that also has the absolute reading of the moment in it\nTwo\t\t008\tSide 2 begins.  Nichol on fluid structure as counter to the high modernist notion that art is eternal\n\t\t015\tButling & Nichol discuss the contradiction between the argument with systems and structure that there isn’t any one, but may; but still giving a structure, creating a work that will live beyond the artists\n\t\t039\tNichol argues that it should not be presented as a prescription, but to present things side by side: statement/non-statement, concreteness/abstraction, coherence/incoherence oscillating within the same structure\n\t\t065\tThe Martyrology becomes a model of an approach to poetics\n\t\t122\tNichol: The minute I die [the structure’s] fixed… I want to revise my will so that it’s really obvious the thing should be published in its state, it shouldn’t be cleaned up\n\t\t142\tButling wants to talk about politics as an issue for Nichol partly because it’s an issue for Phyllis [Webb]\n\t\t159\tNichol sees his work as political but not in the sense of an Octavio Paz or Pablo Neruda.  Discussion ensues on Barthes, politics in art, and a Puritan approach; comments of Robert Kroetsch\n\t\t196\tYou have to have an imagination of difference, of a possibility of difference in the world, because Nichol cannot see the isms we have as working\n\t\t200\tThe problem with even talking about this [political solutions to complex if not insoluble problems] is that it begins to sound like a justification for it.  The analogy with talking about Americans’ ignorance of Canadian writing\n\t\t227\tThe problems begin in the mind and how people formulate problems and solutions – Nichol\n\t\t245\tOn deconstruction, concrete poetry not leading to chaos or dead ends; concrete poetry seen as ‘barbarism’, to take Louis Dudek’s terms.  Nichol discusses Dudek’s hostility to concrete poetry although realizing the use by Nichol’s generation of his own work\n\t\t270\tModernism as failure in proposing a permanent coherence; Nichol on Pound’s Cantos\n\t\t365\tNichol and Butling begin to review Nichol’s “The Grace of the Moment” (The Martyrology Book 6, VI) to examine what choices are open to him.  Poem beginning “The Grace of the Moment” is discussed, referencing Nichol’s work process as it pertains line by line to this work\n\t\t423\tNichol’s choice for words will be that which keeps as many meanings in the air as possible\n\t\t439\tThe Martyrology as a piece of music; the first time through you will hear certain things, the second time through certain others.  Discussion continues line by line on “The Grace of the Moment” to end of tape\n\t\t580\tSide 2 ends"],"score":5.48384},{"id":"5359","cataloger_name":["Mozhgan,Nourafkan"],"partnerInstitution":["Simon Fraser University"],"collection_source_collection":["Reading in BC Collection"],"source_collection_label":["Reading in BC Collection"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SFU Library"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":[""],"collection_source_collection_description":["Reading in BC collection was assembled during the late 1970s and ‘80s. There are approximately 1000 tapes in this collection. It consists of the recordings of Canadian and American writers, mostly poets, reading poems, talking, being interviewed, participating in panel discussions, and so on. Most of the recordings were made in BC, but there are some made elsewhere in Canada or the USA. Quite a few of these recordings are unique copies, not to be found elsewhere."],"collection_source_collection_id":["MsC 199"],"persistent_url":[""],"item_title":["bp Nichol interview with Fred Wah and Pauline Butling on November 16, 1986 part 2 of 2 #750"],"item_title_source":["cassette and j-card"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Documentary recording"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Copyright Not Evaluated (CNE)"],"creator_names":["Butling, Paulina","Wah, Fred","Nichol, B. P."],"creator_names_search":["Butling, Paulina","Wah, Fred","Nichol, B. P."],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/44560494\",\"name\":\"Butling, Paulina\",\"dates\":\"1939-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Speaker\",\"Interviewer\"]},{\"url\":\" http://viaf.org/viaf/1330211\",\"name\":\"Wah, Fred \",\"dates\":\"1939-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Interviewer\",\"Speaker\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/76350280\",\"name\":\"Nichol, B. P.\",\"dates\":\"1944-1988\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Speaker\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Performance_Date":[1986],"material_description":["[{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"../Uploads/1227/Reading in BC_MsC199_750.jpg\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/8 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Stereo\",\"playing_speed\":\"\",\"sound_quality\":\"Good\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"T02:08:00\",\"physical_condition\":\"Good\",\"track_configuration\":\"2 track\",\"material_designation\":\"Cassette\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"J-card\",\"other_physical_description\":\"Black and white clear jewel case with J-card\"}]"],"material_designations":["Cassette"],"physical_compositions":["Magnetic Tape"],"recording_type":["Analogue"],"AV_type":["Audio"],"playback_mode":["Stereo"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"750-side-1.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"Stereo\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"T00:30:38\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"39.0 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"32 bit\",\"encoding\":\"WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"750-side-2.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"Stereo\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"T00:15:42\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"18.7 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"32 bit\",\"encoding\":\"WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"1986-11-16\",\"type\":\"Performance Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"J-card\"}]"],"Location":["[]"],"City":["Other"],"content_notes":["SFU BC Readings formatting"],"contents":["Side\tTrack\tNo.\tComments\nOne\t\t007\tTape begins mid-interview with Nichol on imagination and play and process\n\t\t075\tWah talks about a novel on the Titanic story that foreshadows the Titanic incident\n\t\t101\tWah asks Butling if she has talked to bp about the unit of composition in The Martyrology?  How it changes through the books.  A sketchy discussion evolves with bp Nichol very poorly miked and barely audible in the background – Wah exits discussion\n\t\t154\tButling states that content will take care of itself if bp Nichol looks after the form.  Discussion becomes even more inaudible\n\t\t217\tWah on a student’s book of poems, Robert McLean, who invented a line break\n\t\t253\tMike is moved to catch Nichol’s voice\n\t\t255\tNichol on pataphysical process in Book 2\n\t\t304\tButling : you’re committed to process, to things not ending, so how do you stop?\n\t\t307\tNichol says it’s arbitrary, it’s like a meditation\n\t\t315\tNichol says the poem is dealing with the absolute nature of the transitory\n\t\t325\tDeath brackets everything we’re talking about, which goes back to The Book of Hours\n\t\t350\tTrying to find an open structure which allows in the moment as well as a sense of history\n\t\t376\tButling on Nichol’s ability to exit the didactic voice through use of sound and multiple voices\n\t\t396\tSide One ends\nTwo\t\t009\tNichol on his family as a tribe with no national boundary\n\t\t022\tNichol has no place to return to, no hometown\n\t\t034\tNichol says he’s never become a regional poet because his family moved all the time.  Nichol says his childhood moving traumatized him.  Discussion ensues on the Canadian writing community\n\t\t072\tNichol’s theme on a notion of return, a return to language\n\t\t092\t“The Plunkett Hotel” is about the desperate attempt to establish roots.  A reclamation of what family was then\n\t\t125\tButling asks about community : what gives you permission to transgress, or to do things that aren’t considered acceptable or normal?\n\t\t147\tNichol on meeting Margaret Avison and her approval of his poetry\n\t\t167\tNichol on meeting McCaffery in 1968, support and publishing\n\t\t212\tNichol talks about media writing in later life and how it is not conducive to play"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"BP Nichol with Fred Wah and Pauline Butling  November 16, 1986\\npart II \\nside 3: 28:57\\nside 4: 13:30\\nDOLBY B\\n#750\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"The first part of this interview is missing\",\"type\":\"\"},{\"note\":\"the length of the digital file's side 1 is T00:30:38 and side 2 is T00:15:42, but the performance only takes 28:57 on side 1 and 13:30 on side 2 and the rest of audio is empty \",\"type\":\"\"}]"],"Related_works":["[]"],"_version_":1853670553063260160,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:57.525Z","score":5.48384}]