[{"id":"1272","cataloger_name":["Masoumeh,Zaare"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"source_collection_label":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"collection_contributing_unit":["Records Management and Archives"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":[""],"collection_source_collection_description":["The fonds consists of some administrative records of the SGWU Department of English and the Concordia Department of English between 1971 and 2000. It also consists of some SGWU Department of English records related to student academic activities in the 1940s and to public readings and lectures, and a few interviews, produced between 1966 and 1972. The fonds mainly includes minutes of departmental meetings and some course timetables. It also includes some student papers in bound volumes and 63 sound recordings (80 audio reels) mainly composed of poetry readings (see the Concordia SpokenWeb project which uses this material) but also a few lectures given at SGWU. There are also loose typed sheets describing some of the SGWU poetry readings."],"collection_source_collection_id":["I086"],"persistent_url":["http://archives.concordia.ca/I086"],"item_title":["Lionel Kearns and bpNichol at Sir George Williams University, The Poetry Series, 22 November 1968"],"item_title_source":["Cataloguer"],"item_title_note":["\"POETRY READING NOV 22/68 BP. NICHOL + LIONEL KEARNS PART ONE  #1 I086-11-026.1\" written partially on sticker on the spine of the tape's box and directly on the spine of the tape's box. \"POETRY 1 NOV 22\" written on sticker on the reel. \"RT 531 Pt.1\" written on sticker on the front of the tape's box.\n\n\"POETRY READING NOV 22/68 2 BP. NICHOL + LIONEL KEARNS PART TWO  #1 I086-11-026.12\" written partially on sticker on the spine of the tape's box and directly on the spine of the tape's box. \"POETRY 2 NOV 22\" and \"I086-11-026.2\" written on stickers on the reel. \"RT 531 Pt.2\" written on sticker on the front of the tape's box."],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Documentary recording"],"item_series_title":["The Poetry Series"],"item_subseries_title":["Poetry 3"],"item_identifiers":["[I086-11-026.1, I086-11-026.2]"],"creator_names":["Nichol, Barrie Phillip","Kearns, Lionel"],"creator_names_search":["Nichol, Barrie Phillip","Kearns, Lionel"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/76350280\",\"name\":\"Nichol, Barrie Phillip\",\"dates\":\"1944-1988 \",\"notes\":\"Canadian avant-garde poet bpNichol (Barrie Phillip) was born in Vancouver, British Columbia on September 30, 1944. Nichol spent his childhood in Vancouver, in Winnipeg, Manitoba and in Port Arthur, Ontario before returning to his birthplace in 1960. Although Nichol was writing by 1961, he enrolled into the education faculty at the University of British Columbia and received a teaching degree in 1963. At UBC, Nichol audited writing classes and met younger members of the Tish group. Then Nichol taught grade four students in Port and Coquitlam, B.C. for a year before moving to Toronto, where he worked as a book searcher for the University of Toronto and entered therapy with lay analyst Lea Hindley-Smith. In 1967, Nichol established the lay-therapy foundation and community Therafields, and served as an administrator and therapist until 1983. His first publication, a ‘bp box’ included Journeying & the returns (a book), Letters Home (visual poems), Borders (a record), Wild Thing (a flip book) and Statement (printed on the back of the box) was published by Coach House Press in 1967 was followed by a collection of concrete poetry, Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer (Writer’s Forum, 1967). Nichol began working with sound poetry in the mid-1960’s, but also valued the textuality and visual materiality of words and books. Nichol collaborated with Steve McCaffery to found the Toronto Research Group through which they wrote and published essays on the materiality of writing, which were later collected in Rational Geomancy: The Kids of the Book Machine (1992). The duo also formed a sound poetry group, The Four Horsemen, with Rafael Barreto-Rivera and Paul Dutton. Nichol founded Ganglia Press in 1965, and started a series of pamphlets in 1969 called grOnk. Nichol also published The Complete Works (Ganglia, 1969), a package of booklets Still Water, The true eventual story of Billy the Kid, Beach head, and The cosmic chef (Talonbooks, 1970) which won a Governor General’s Award for Poetry, ABC: the aleph beth book (Oberon Press, 1971), Monotons (Talonbooks, 1971), The Other Side of the Room (Weed/Flower Press, 1971) and Two Novels (Coach House Press, 1969).  At this time, Nichol began writing his life-long serial long poem, The Martyrology Books 1 & 2 (Coach House Press, 1972), a series which Nichol published Books 3 and 4 (C.H.P., 1976), Book 5 (C.H.P., 1982), Book 6 (1987), after which Books 7-10 were published posthumously through Coach House Press. Nichols worked tirelessly as an unpaid volunteer for Coach House Press, and personally edited or acquired almost one quarter of the titles published during that time. Nichols was not only a poet, visual artist and editor, he wrote songs and scripts for the TV programs Fraggle Rocks and The Racoons, musical comedies Group (1980) and Tracks (1986), and the bestselling children’s books ONCE: A Lullaby (Black Moss Press, 1983), Moosequakes and other disasters (Black Moss Press, 1981), The man who loved his knees (Black Moss Press, 1993) and To the end of the block (Black Moss Press, 1984). His later publications include Unit of four (Seripress, 1973), Zygal (Coach House Press, 1985), Selected organs: parts of an autobiography (Black Moss Press, 1988), Art Facts (Chax Press, 1990). Nichol appears in Michael Ondaatje’s film, Sons of Captain Poetry (1970), bp: pushing the boundaries directed by Brian Nash (1997), Ron Mann’s Poetry in Motion (1982). bpNichol died in Toronto on September 25, 1988. A street in the Annex district behind Coach House Press was named in his honour, with an eight-line poem by Nichol written into the pavement: “A / LAKE / A / LANE / A / LINE / A / LONE”.\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Author\",\"Performer\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/30784380\",\"name\":\"Kearns, Lionel\",\"dates\":\"1937-\",\"notes\":\"Canadian poet Lionel Kearns was born in Nelson, British Columbia in 1937. His father, C.F. Kearns, a Great War flyer, outdoorsman and short-story author encouraged Kearns to pursue a literary career. In the mid 1950’s, Kearns embarked on trip, traveling the world and even playing professional hockey in Mexico. Kearns then returned to B.C. and studied poetic theory and structural linguistics at the University of British Columbia, where he met and worked with George Bowering, Frank Davey and Fred Wah in the Tish collective. His M.A. thesis was published by Tishbooks as Songs of circumstance in 1962. His second publication, Listen, George (Imago Press, 1965) was a verse-letter to George Bowering about his youth, written while he was studying at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. Kearns was influenced by the European  concrete and sound poetry movements, and spent a year in Trinidad analyzing the West Indian English dialect. In 1966, upon returning to Canada, Kearns held a position at the English department at Simon Fraser University, which he held until 1986. His next publications include By the light of the silvery McLune: media parables, poems, signs, gestures and other assaults on the interface (The Daylight Press, 1969), Practicing up to be human (1978), Ignoring the bomb (1982), and his highly acclaimed book, Convergences (1984). Kearns was the writer-in-residence at Concordia University from 1982-3. Since 1986, Kearns created a continent-wide on-line graduate course, ‘The Cybernetics of Poetry’ for ConnecEd, the distance learning facility of the New York School for Social Research in New York, which he teaches from home. Interested in the electronic and online poetry potential, Kearns became the first writer-in-electronic-residence, assisting Trevor Owen establish the ‘Wier’ project, an on-line writing project.\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Author\",\"Performer\"]}]"],"contributors_names":["Bowering, George"],"contributors_names_search":["Bowering, George"],"contributors":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/34469976\",\"name\":\"Bowering, George\",\"dates\":\"1935-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Series organizer\",\"Presenter\"]}]"],"Presenter_name":["Bowering, George"],"Series_organizer_name":["Bowering, George"],"Performance_Date":[1968],"material_description":["[{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"Scotch\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"\",\"sound_quality\":\"Poor\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"Unfortunately, the recording appears to contain many cuts and occasionally jumps back and forth in time. At many points, it also sounds as though the sound of one tape has been layered over the other creating a doubling effect, which most likely occurred sometime after the original recording and digitization process.\",\"track_configuration\":\"\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"},{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"Scotch\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"\",\"sound_quality\":\"Poor\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"Unfortunately, the recording appears to contain many cuts and occasionally jumps back and forth in time. At many points, it also sounds as though the sound of one tape has been layered over the other creating a doubling effect, which most likely occurred sometime after the original recording and digitization process.\",\"track_configuration\":\"\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"}]"],"material_designations":["Reel to Reel","Reel to Reel"],"physical_compositions":["Magnetic Tape","Magnetic Tape"],"recording_type":["Analogue","Analogue"],"AV_type":["Audio","Audio"],"playback_mode":["Mono","Mono"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"1968 11 22\",\"type\":\"Performance Date\",\"notes\":\"Date written twice on the reel and tape's box\",\"source\":\"Accompanying Material\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"Unknown\",\"notes\":\" \",\"address\":\"Unknown\",\"latitude\":\"\",\"longitude\":\"\"}]"],"Address":["Unknown"],"Venue":["Unknown"],"content_notes":["Lionel Kearns reads from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967) and poems published later in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures, and other Assaults on the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969). bpNichol reads from a wide variety of his works, some published, some unpublished, including Dada Lama (England: Tlaloc, 1968), The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid (Weed/Flower, 1970), Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer (Weed/Flower Press, 1973), and Selected Writing: As Elected (Talonbooks, 1980). Many unnamed poems may belong to two of Nichol’s series, the Captain Poetry Poems The Martyrology.\n"],"contents":["bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-026-1.mp3 [File 1 of 2]\n \nGeorge Bowering\n00:00:00\nThe second reading in our third series, I don't feel very happy tonight that the crowd is nice and big, and also that because I don't quite know what's going to happen, although I've heard rumours. We have Lionel Kearns [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6555690] and bpNichol [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4953105], as you know, and they have elected instead of doing a reading by each poet, with an intermission in the middle or anything like that, a manner of joint reading. And I think, in a sense, that makes a lot of sense, because Lionel Kearns is by one of his professions, a linguist, and also one of his main, one of his main themes is the social care of human beings. bpNichol is a radical therapist, and is known especially for his border-blur poems, and it makes a lot of sense, I think, for that reason that they do read together. They read together last night at Carleton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1041737], apparently worked out very well. Lionel is as you probably know is one of the centres of the so-called Vancouver [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q24639]Renaissance that took over Canadian poetry in the 1960's, threatened to do that too [laughter]. bp was one of those blessed children from the east, although he had lived in Vancouver before, who kept his ears open. Well, he says he was born there. bp managed to grace the city of Vancouver for a few years and I guess that's where he got the ears open in the first place, but since that time he's been opening all our ears. So seeing as how this reading threatens to last four hours, according to rumours, I think I'll stop now and give the floor to either, and, or bpNichol and Lionel Kearns.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:02:26\nWell, I'll begin by reading a poem called \"Telephone\". It's what I call a media parable, I have a whole set of poems that are media parables and things, which are coming out in a collection very soon. This one is called \"Telephone\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:02:49\nReads \"Telephone\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; audience laughter throughout].\n \nbpNichol\n00:07:04\nWhat you're going to get out of me this evening is a strange pastiche, since I managed to do that clever thing of losing everything I wrote over the last year. So this is selected weirdness.\n \nbpNichol\n00:07:23\nReads [“Monotones”, part I from Gifts: The Martyrology Book(s) 7 &”]. \n \nbpNichol\n00:08:45\nReads \"Uneven Song\". \n\nbpNichol\n00:09:28\nReads unnamed poem. \n \nLionel Kearns\n00:10:26\nReads \"Word\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:11:27\nI'll read a series of quiet poems. Because we've got some really loud ones to read too. \"Poem found among the ruins\".\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:11:43\nReads \"Poem found among the ruins\" [published as “Medium” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:19\nThis one's called \"The Business\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:24\nReads \"The Business\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:43\nThis one is called \"Genres”.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:45\nReads \"Genres” [published as “Content” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:13:51\nReads \"The Answer\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:15:05\nAnd this one, derives from my seeing a piece of sculpture, an exhibition of Haida art I think, or some West Coast Indian art. A little figure of a woman carved, a carved figure of a woman, but she is in a very strange position, she's doing a kind of funny thing. It seemed worth writing a poem about. It's called \"Labio Digital\". [Audience laughter].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:15:55\nReads \"Labio Digital\" [published as “Sculpture” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nbpNichol\n00:16:41\nReads \"The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid\" [published  later in The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid and collected in Craft Dinner: Stories & Texts 1966-1976; audience laughter throughout]]. \n \nLionel Kearns\n00:20:46\nThis one is called--I'll try reading with both the mic and without the mic and if you can't hear me, then shout and tell me that you can't hear me. I'll try this one without the mic. It's called \"Gestured” My titles are always very abstract. That's not very abstract [audience laughter]. Most of my titles are very abstract. This is written for a friend, I had to [inaudible] with a sketch.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:21:32\nReads “Gestured” [published as \"Expression\" in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n\nAudience\n00:22:36\nApplause [cut off].\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:22:39\nActually, actually, I don't think it's a good idea to clap in between the poems, because bp and I have got so many good poems that you're going to wear your hands out. [Audience laughter]. This one is called \"Transport\", it's also a media parable.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:22:56\nReads \"Transport\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n\nUnknown\n00:26:32\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n \nbpNichol\n00:26:33\nThere's things that I try to be absolutely very, very personal [inaudible] thing I ever wrote. I wrote it at Port Dover [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7230589], in, on Lake Erie [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5492]. It's one of those days when I was flaked out on the beach, covered up because I get vicious sunburns and just peel the whole summer, and in the background was playing \"(There’ll Be Bluebirds) Over the white cliffs of Dover\" and “What’s New Pussycat” sort of juxtaposed, there was sprawled over the beach was this weird phrase \"Podunk\" and these two cats were playing football overtop of my head. So anyways I felt very sort of, weird, and wrote the following poem.\n \nbpNichol\n00:27:25\nPerforms unnamed poem.\n \nbpNichol\n00:29:06\nHugo Ball [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q70989] was kind of the daddy of us all, and he was kind of a very fine dadaist who lived in Switzerland [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q39] during the first World War [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q361] and sort of did the first sound poems. It was very strange, if you read Hugo Ball's diaries, it's rather fascinating because it was more or less, when he gave these sort of his final public reading he got really carried away in the midst of a sound poem an kind of got thrown back into sort of a--how to put this--an earlier space in his mind, anyways he went back and started remembering all sorts of things right back through his life doing this sound poem. As you read the diaries, there's a real feeling he became totally terrified of what was happening to him. Because at that point he then just split and left the whole thing behind. So this is kind of for Hugo Ball. It's called \"Dada Lama\". This poem's gone through so many changes I can't even keep track of it anymore.\n \nbpNichol\n00:30:28\nReads [sections of Dada Lama: a sound sequence in six parts, collected later in Selected Writing: As Elected]. \n \nLionel Kearns\n00:33:38\nI'm going to read some poems now from my collection, Pointing, which I see is for sale out on the other room. These poems are, for the most part, quiet poems, poems of my own measured voice. They're poems that originated a few years ago and they came out of the general West Coast poetry scene that was going on very intensely--hello?\n\nGeorge Bowering\n00:34:09\nIt’s hard to hear... \n\nLionel Kearns\n00:34:10\nIs it hard to hear back there with this? \n\nUnknown\n00:34:12\nAmbient Sound [voices and laughter].\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:34:20\nI'll try--If I talk louder into the mic can you hear that? Keep letting me know, if you can't hear, shout. I'd like to read this one into the mic because they aren't poems that can be shouted. This one is called \"Situation\" and it derives from an experience I had in Mexico [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q96] many years ago. \n \nLionel Kearns\n00:35:06\nReads poem \"Situation” [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:36:24\nHow's that for sound, can you hear that? \"Insights\".\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:36:36\nReads \"Insights\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface]/\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:36:55\nI'm very sentimental [audience laughter.] This is an early poem I wrote, it's called \"Homage to Machado\". It's really a translation of a poem by Antonio Machado [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243771], the Spanish poet. I've not only translated it, I've switched the central image, but used his statement. His image was that of a boat going across a lake and he looked out and saw the ripple of the water behind it and  then commented on that. But I changed the metaphor.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:37:45\nReads \"Hommage to Machado\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:38:17\nReads \"Remains\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:39:08\nReads \"Total Presence\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:40:05\nA very small poem called \"Witness\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:40:07\nReads \"Witness\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:40:38\nAnd this one, called \"Profile\". I'll read it without the mic.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:40:45\nReads \"Profile\" [from Pointing].\n \nUnknown Audience Member 1\n00:41:32\nHave you ever thought of pausing it and--\n\nUnknown\n00:41:34\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:41:37\nWe thought of reading all of our quiet poems at the beginning, and then getting louder and louder and louder, but we thought this would get you too excited and you'd go out onto the street and...[audience laughter.] So we decided to mix them all up and you'll get everything quiet and loud and funny and very serious and that's part of it,you know,getting them all at once all in juxtaposed relationships.\n \nbpNichol\n00:42:12\nThis way you can sort of do what you want with which ones you wanna do. It's very hard to listen to a poetry reading all the way through. I can never hack poetry readings myself [audience laughter]. What Lionel and I are trying to do is maybe do you a favour so you can listen for a longer time maybe [audience laughter].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:42:32\nWho locked the door? [Audience laughter].\n \nbpNichol\n00:42:37\nAmong my poems from the last year which I lost, was a very long thing called The Martyrology which included all these things about a whole series of saints I'd evolved. Which had included St. Reet and St. Ranglehold and St. And and it's kind of too complicated to go into what they all sort of were doing, but St. Ranglehold came from the word 'stranglehold' and the rest you can kind of figure out maybe.\n \nbpNichol\n00:43:05\nReads unnamed poem from The Martyrology series.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:43:56\nWas that loud enough by the way?\n \nbpNichol\n00:43:58\nCould you hear that? It's hard to tell from behind here. This is a poem called \"Ruth\" and it was for a good friend of mine, David W. Harris, who now calls himself David W. And it begins with a quote from Ruth.\n \nbpNichol\n00:44:20\nReads \"Ruth\" [from Ruth].\n \nbpNichol\n00:46:20\nReads unnamed poem. \n \nbpNichol\n00:46:57\nAnd this uh, this is a poem that begins with a line from a poem by bill bissett [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4911496]. Actually--\n\nUnknown\n00:47:01\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n \nbpNichol\n00:47:18\nReads unnamed poem. \n\nLionel Kearns\n00:49:43\nWe'll try it up there. It's called \"Color Problem\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:49:49\nReads \"Color Problem\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:50:06\nThis, I'm going to read a concrete poem now. bp inspires me so much with his concrete poetry that I have begun to write concrete poetry too. Some concrete poetry is purely visual and you can't read it, it's to go on walls and things like that. Other concrete poetry is so sonic that it's nothing really to look at, but occasionally you can get the two combined so that you have something on the page which also is something else when read, but the two correspond. This one that I've got is to some extent like that, on the page it's called \"Studies in Interior Decoration Border Design\" because of the way it looks on the page, which of course being an audience at a poetry reading, you aren't concerned with. But I'll read it  and it does work, I think, sonically too. It's called \"The Woman Who Reminded Him of the Woman Who\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:51:20\nReads \"The Woman Who Reminded Him of the Woman Who\" [published as “The Woman Who” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nUnknown\n00:53:14\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts to bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-0262.mp3 00:37:59].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:53:25\nThis one is called \"It\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:53:28\nReads \"It\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:54:02\nA lot of the poems in this book--\n \nUnknown\n00:54:05\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to approximately 00:53:13].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:54:15\nThis is called the \"Kinetic Poem\", my poem is called the \"Kinetic Poem\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:54:26\nReads \"Kinetic Poem\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface] with bpNichol.\n \nUnknown\n00:55:57\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n \nbpNichol\n00:56:00\nKon Ichikawa is the name of a Japanese film maker that made a film about the Olympics [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5389]. Okay? How should we start this out--'all together now?' [audience laughter].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:56:15\nThink--think, pretend you're at the Olympics. [Audience laughter].\n \nbpNichol\n00:56:23\n“Karnijakawa--Karnijakawa”, follow me. \n\nbpNichol\n00:56:30\nChants \"Kon Ichikawa” pronounced as “Karnijakawa\" repeatedly with Lionel Kearns and the audience.\n \nbpNichol\n00:57:11\nThank you.\n\nAudience\n00:57:13\nApplause [cut off].\n \nUnknown Audience Member 2\n00:57:16\nKarni-jakawa!\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:57:22\nCarne means meat in Spanish. I was at Louis Dudek's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3261787], at one of his courses today and we were talking and the students were talking and so on and I was reading a few poems, and they said, \"Why are you so pessimistic about things?\" and I'm not so pessimistic, and I'll read a poem now that's got an up-beat ending [audience laughter].\n \nUnknown Audience Member 3\n00:57:59\nWhat led them to deduce your pessimism?\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:58:00\nI read a poem without an upbeat ending [audience laughter]. This is another media parable. And it's called \"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\" and naturally, it derives from a movie. Um, the movie called The Seven Samurai [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q189540]. [Audience laughter.] Or you've probably seen that, there's a,Hollywood [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34006] derived a few movies from that, one of them called The Magnificent Seven [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19069] or something like that. The original one was a Western made in Japan [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q17], and Hollywood stole the idea and made a Western in the West. Now I've taken the same situation, the same story and given it a Northern locale. And that's why it's called \"The Seventh Seal\" [Audience laughter]. It was published in this New Romans thing, and that makes it an anti-American poem, but it really, when I wrote it, I didn't have this book in mind. But they paid me $30 so [audience laughter] I put it in here.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:59:38\nReads \"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\" [published as “The Seventh Seal” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; reading cut off].\n \nEND\n01:01:57\n\n\nbpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-026-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2]\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:00:00\nReads \"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\" [published as “The Seventh Seal” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; reading resumes from previous recording; audience laughter throughout].\n \nbpNichol\n00:06:17\nReads \"Historical Implications of Turnips\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer].\n \nbpNichol\n00:07:01\nThis is called, for a reason I cannot remember at all, \"Cycle Number 22\".\n \nbpNichol\n00:07:13\nReads \"Cycle Number 22\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer and published later in Selected Writing: As Elected].\n \nbpNichol\n00:07:49\nThis next poem's called \"The Child in Me\". It's kind of what all sound poetry's about anyways. Enough said.\n \nbpNichol\n00:08:09\nReads \"The Child in Me\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer].\n \nbpNichol\n00:09:10\nThis is a poem called \"The New New Captain Poetry Blues\" and it's for David McFadden [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5237344]. Captain Poetry is kind of this person that happened a long time ago in a magazine I used to edit called Ganglia, and David McFadden is still happening in Hamilton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q133116], and is probably Canada's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16] best poet and what else is there to say? Oh yes, a little footnote, there's a place in here called Plunkett [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2202272] which really exists and my mother was born there strangely enough. This is all about that.\n \nbpNichol\n00:09:48\nReads [sections of \"The New New Captain Poetry Blues: An Undecided Novel\" from The Captain Poetry Poems].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:53\nThis poem is called \"Split\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:12:59\nReads \"Split\" [published as “Personality” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n\nAudience\n00:14:05\nLaughter.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:14:07\nPeople occasionally, when they're put on the spot to ask me questions, say \"What's it like to be a poet\", or \"Is it true that so and so and so and so...\" and things like that, questions that are impossible to answer. But there is something about being a poet, and this is one of the things, this is one of the differences, and this poem is called \"The Difference\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:14:40\nReads \"The Difference\" [published as “Roles” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; audience laughter throughout].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:15:40\nThis is an older poem, it's a Christmas poem, it was written at the time when [Khrushchev (?)] got his call down, also about the time of the American intervention in the Dominican Republic [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q786], where the Americans came in because they knew that there were Cuban influences, or the Cubans were behind the so-called rebels in the Dominican Republic and one of the proofs was that some of the rebels had been seen wearing green uniforms [audience laughter]. Of course, most military uniforms are kind of green, but they pointed out that some of Fidel Castro's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11256] soldiers had green uniforms too. But this is a Christmas poem.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:16:51\nReads \"Christmas Poem” [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:17:57\nI make most of my living teaching at Simon Fraser University [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q201603] and we have some troubles out there sometimes. One of the things that troubled us was the fact that when we were giving lectures to large crowds, we sometimes used the public address system and we found out that back--that the public address system was hooked up with-- operated with an FM band, and the, all your lectures could be picked up on an FM set, for example, an FM set in the President's office. We've since lost that President. And this is called \"University\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:18:55\nReads \"University\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:19:24\nThis one is called \"Economic Chronology\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:19:29\nReads \"Economic Chronology\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nbpNichol\n00:19:42\nThis one's called \"Alimony, Old Baloney\".\n \nbpNichol\n00:19:51\nReads \"Alimony, Old Baloney\" [most likely from the Captain Poetry series]. \n \nUnknown\n00:24:14\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nbpNichol\n00:24:15\nReads unnamed “Captain Poetry” poem.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:26:25\nWell if bp is going to keep reading his Captain Poetry poems, I'm going to read my “Ventilation Parable”. This is an epic.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:26:43\nReads \"Ventilation Parable\" [published as “Ventilation” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:31:19\nThis poem is called \"Creation\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:31:24\nReads \"Creation\" [from Pointing].\n \nbpNichol\n00:31:52\nI'm going to do that dangerous thing and read a poem I wrote last night. That's [inaudible]. \n \nUnknown\n00:31:59\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to 00:31:40].\n\nLionel Kearns\n00:32:00\nReads section of “Creation” [from Pointing].\n \nUnknown\n00:32:18\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to 00:31:52]. \n\nAudience\n00:32:19\nLaughter.\n\nbpNichol\n00:32:21\nI'm going to do that dangerous thing and read a poem I wrote last night [laughter]. That's waking Lionel up at 7:30 this morning which he didn't quite forgive me for. It starts off with a quote from a poem by Bobby Hoat [?.] Well, yesterday we were up at Carlton doing a reading there. It's a poem called \"Zero Phase\". There's a town referred to in here called Vars [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3554856] which happens to be where he lives. It's a very groovy little place, just outside of...\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:32:51\nCan you hear?\n \nbpNichol\n00:32:52\nIs that okay? If I talk kind of into it like this?\n \nbpNichol\n00:33:04\nReads \"Zero Phase\".\n \nbpNichol\n00:34:36\nThis is a poem called \"Returning\". It sort of was written after I wrote a book of poetry called Journeying and the Returns.\n \nbpNichol\n00:34:58\nReads \"Returning\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:37:49\nI'm going--I'm going to read a series of poems again, from my collection Pointing. This one is called \"It\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:38:13\nReads \"It\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:38:45\nA lot of the poems in this book derive their images from dreams, and this is a poem which is about a dream I had. And it's--I've interpreted the dream. Some extent of the poem--I interpreted as a kind of message about where I get my images for my poems, or where I got them at this particular period. And I called \"Ambergris, a Statement on Source\". Ambergris, being that stuff that sick whales cough up and which floats around on the ocean and it's very smelly stuff but it's very valuable stuff if you find it floating around because you can sell it for a great deal of money to perfume factories. And that's the interpretation of the series of images that follow.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:39:55\nReads \"Ambergris, a Statement on Source\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:40:42\nAnd this one, called \"Contra Diction\", it's a poem that is often anthologized. It's a poem that I like because I think it does what usually I'm trying to do in poems. It's not a very big poem, but it's neat, I think.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:41:12\nReads \"Contra Diction\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:41:40\nThis one is called \"Both\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:41:45\nReads \"Both\" [from Pointing].\n\nUnknown\n00:42:06\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:42:07\nThis is an early poem that I wrote, it fits into a series of poems that I was writing at the time in which I was dealing with my own background, trying to come to terms with things like my own Catholic background, and as you will see the central image is a Christian one. The situation is the fairgrounds actual--the actual situation is the PNE- the Pacific National Exhibition [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4179402]. It's an easter poem called \"Friday at the Ex\"\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:43:07\nReads \"Friday at the Ex\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:44:34\nAnd this one, called \"Prototypes\".\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:44:41\nReads \"Prototypes\" [from Pointing].\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:45:33\nAnd I think this is the last one I'll read, it's called \"End Poem\". An appropriate title.\n \nLionel Kearns\n00:45:42\nReads \"End Poem\" [from Pointing].\n\nUnknown\n00:46:04\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \n\nbpNichol\n00:46:05\nReads unnamed poem. \n \nEND\n00:46:47"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"Year-Specific Information:\\n\\nIn 1968, Lionel Kearns was working on By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures, and other Assaults on the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969) and published The Birth of God (Trigram Press, 1968) and Trips Out (Western Press, 1968).\\n\\nIn 1968, bpNichol was editing Gronk, published Dada Lama (Tlaloc, 1968), Captain Poetry Poems (blewointment press, 1968), DA DEAD (Ganglia Press), a collaboration with David Aylward called Strange Grey Town (Gronk Press, 1968) and was working on The Complete Works (Ganglia Press, 1969), The Martyrology (Coach House Press, 1972). Nichol and Kearns read at Carleton University the night before this reading.\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"Local Connections:\\n\\nKearns met George Bowering in Vancouver at University of British Columbia and was part of the Tish movement in the early 60’s.\\n\\nNo direct connections to Sir George Williams University have been found, however\\nbpNichol’s fame exploded in the mid-60’s in Canada and was well known to the Reading Series Committee and many of the other poets who read in the series.\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"2 reel-to-reel tapes>2 CDs>2 digital files\",\"type\":\"Preservation\"},{\"note\":\"Original transcript, print catalogue, introduction, research and edits by Celyn Harding-Jones\\n\\nAdditional research and edits by Ali Barillaro\",\"type\":\"Cataloguer\"}]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"http://www.bpnichol.ca/about\",\"citation\":\"“About bp: a short biography & select bibliography”. An Online Archive for bpNichol. Artmop Project and Ellie Nichol.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/from-there-to-here-a-guide-to-english-canadian-literature-since-1960/oclc/441669839&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Davey, Frank. “bp Nichol”. From There to Here: a Guide to English-Canadian Literature Since 1960. Erin, Ontario: Press Porcepic, 1974. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-canadian-literature/oclc/605246871&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Davey, Frank. \\\"Kearns, Lionel\\\". The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature. Eugene Benson and William Toye (eds). Oxford University Press 2001. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/from-there-to-here-a-guide-to-english-canadian-literature-since-1960/oclc/441669839&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Davey, Frank. “Lionel Kearns”. From There to Here: A Guide to English-Canadian Literature Since 1960. Erin, Ontario: Press Porcepic, 1974. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-canadian-literature/oclc/605246871&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Davey, Frank. \\\"Nichol, bp\\\". The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature. Eugene Benson and William Toye (eds). Oxford University Press 2001.  \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/pointing-ryerson/oclc/695590531&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Kearns, Lionel. Pointing. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1967. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/by-the-light-of-the-silvery-mclune-media-parables-poems-signs-gestures-and-other-assaults-on-the-interface/oclc/639996585&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Kearns, Lionel. By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures, and other Assaults on the Interface. Vancouver: The Daylight Press & Talon Books, 1969. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/encyclopedia-of-post-colonial-literatures-in-english-vol-1/oclc/32566813&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Miki, Roy. “Nichol, Bp (1944-1988)”. Routledge Encyclopedia of Post-Colonial Literatures in English. Eugene Benson and L.W. Conolly (eds). London: Routledge, 1994. 2 Vols. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/abc-the-aleph-beth-book/oclc/906049140&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP.  ABC Aleph Beth Book. Toronto: Oberon Press, 1971. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/ballads-of-the-restless-are-two-versionscommon-source/oclc/910220806&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Ballads of the Restless Are. Sacramento: Runcible Spoon, 1967-8. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/beach-head/oclc/1147729759&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Beach Head. Sacramento: Runcible Spoon, 1970.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/briefly-the-birthdeath-cycle-from-the-book-of-hours/oclc/10260162&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Briefly: the birthdeath cycle from The Book of Hours. Lantzville, British Columbia: Island Writing Series: 1981. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/craft-dinner-stories-texts-1966-1976/oclc/562773039&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Craft Dinner: Stories & Texts 1966-1976. Toronto: Aya Press, 1978. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/dada-lama-a-sound-sequence-in-six-parts/oclc/877591459&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Dada Lama. Leeds, England: Tlaloc, 1968. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/extreme-positions/oclc/729776791&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Extreme Positions. Edmonton: Longspoon Press, 1981. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/journal/oclc/797400077&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Journal. Toronto: Coach House Press, 1978. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/journeying-the-returns/oclc/458215&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Journeying & the Returns. Toronto: Coach House Press, 1967. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/konfessions-of-an-elizabethan-fan-dancer/oclc/784883412&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer. Toronto: Weed/Flower Press, 1973. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/ruth/oclc/1056461719&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Ruth. Toronto: Fleye Press, 1967. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/selected-writing-as-elected/oclc/907413274&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. Selected Writing: As Elected. Vancouver: Talonbooks, 1980.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/captain-poetry-poems/oclc/839698718&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. The Captain Poetry Poems. Vancouver: blew ointment press, 1968.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/martyrology/oclc/44068798&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. The Martyrology. Toronto: Coach House Press, 1972. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/true-eventual-story-of-billy-the-kid/oclc/915720355&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Nichol, BP. The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid. Toronto: Weed/Flower, 1970.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/encyclopedia-of-post-colonial-literatures-in-english-vol-1/oclc/32566813&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Schermbrucker, Bill. “Kearns, Lionel John (1937-)”. Routledge Encyclopedia of Post-Colonial Literatures in English. Eugene Benson and L.W. Conolly (eds). London: Routledge, 1994. 2 Vols.\"},{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"“Lionel Kearns: Biography”. Canadian Poetry Online. University of Toronto Libraries, 2000. \"}]"],"_version_":1853670548862664704,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.477Z","digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0086_11_0026.1-back.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0086_11_0026.1 back.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Kearns and Nichol Tape Box 1 - Back\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0086_11_0026.1-front.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0086_11_0026.1 front.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Kearns and Nichol Tape Box 1 - 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We have Lionel Kearns [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6555690] and bpNichol [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4953105], as you know, and they have elected instead of doing a reading by each poet, with an intermission in the middle or anything like that, a manner of joint reading. And I think, in a sense, that makes a lot of sense, because Lionel Kearns is by one of his professions, a linguist, and also one of his main, one of his main themes is the social care of human beings. bpNichol is a radical therapist, and is known especially for his border-blur poems, and it makes a lot of sense, I think, for that reason that they do read together. They read together last night at Carleton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1041737], apparently worked out very well. Lionel is as you probably know is one of the centres of the so-called Vancouver [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q24639]Renaissance that took over Canadian poetry in the 1960's, threatened to do that too [laughter]. bp was one of those blessed children from the east, although he had lived in Vancouver before, who kept his ears open. Well, he says he was born there. bp managed to grace the city of Vancouver for a few years and I guess that's where he got the ears open in the first place, but since that time he's been opening all our ears. So seeing as how this reading threatens to last four hours, according to rumours, I think I'll stop now and give the floor to either, and, or bpNichol and Lionel Kearns.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:02:26\\nWell, I'll begin by reading a poem called \\\"Telephone\\\". It's what I call a media parable, I have a whole set of poems that are media parables and things, which are coming out in a collection very soon. This one is called \\\"Telephone\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:02:49\\nReads \\\"Telephone\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; audience laughter throughout].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:07:04\\nWhat you're going to get out of me this evening is a strange pastiche, since I managed to do that clever thing of losing everything I wrote over the last year. So this is selected weirdness.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:07:23\\nReads [“Monotones”, part I from Gifts: The Martyrology Book(s) 7 &”]. \\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:08:45\\nReads \\\"Uneven Song\\\". \\n\\nbpNichol\\n00:09:28\\nReads unnamed poem. \\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:10:26\\nReads \\\"Word\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:11:27\\nI'll read a series of quiet poems. Because we've got some really loud ones to read too. \\\"Poem found among the ruins\\\".\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:11:43\\nReads \\\"Poem found among the ruins\\\" [published as “Medium” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:19\\nThis one's called \\\"The Business\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:24\\nReads \\\"The Business\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:43\\nThis one is called \\\"Genres”.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:45\\nReads \\\"Genres” [published as “Content” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:13:51\\nReads \\\"The Answer\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:15:05\\nAnd this one, derives from my seeing a piece of sculpture, an exhibition of Haida art I think, or some West Coast Indian art. A little figure of a woman carved, a carved figure of a woman, but she is in a very strange position, she's doing a kind of funny thing. It seemed worth writing a poem about. It's called \\\"Labio Digital\\\". [Audience laughter].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:15:55\\nReads \\\"Labio Digital\\\" [published as “Sculpture” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:16:41\\nReads \\\"The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid\\\" [published  later in The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid and collected in Craft Dinner: Stories & Texts 1966-1976; audience laughter throughout]]. \\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:20:46\\nThis one is called--I'll try reading with both the mic and without the mic and if you can't hear me, then shout and tell me that you can't hear me. I'll try this one without the mic. It's called \\\"Gestured” My titles are always very abstract. That's not very abstract [audience laughter]. Most of my titles are very abstract. This is written for a friend, I had to [inaudible] with a sketch.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:21:32\\nReads “Gestured” [published as \\\"Expression\\\" in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n\\nAudience\\n00:22:36\\nApplause [cut off].\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:22:39\\nActually, actually, I don't think it's a good idea to clap in between the poems, because bp and I have got so many good poems that you're going to wear your hands out. [Audience laughter]. This one is called \\\"Transport\\\", it's also a media parable.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:22:56\\nReads \\\"Transport\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:26:32\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:26:33\\nThere's things that I try to be absolutely very, very personal [inaudible] thing I ever wrote. I wrote it at Port Dover [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7230589], in, on Lake Erie [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5492]. It's one of those days when I was flaked out on the beach, covered up because I get vicious sunburns and just peel the whole summer, and in the background was playing \\\"(There’ll Be Bluebirds) Over the white cliffs of Dover\\\" and “What’s New Pussycat” sort of juxtaposed, there was sprawled over the beach was this weird phrase \\\"Podunk\\\" and these two cats were playing football overtop of my head. So anyways I felt very sort of, weird, and wrote the following poem.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:27:25\\nPerforms unnamed poem.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:29:06\\nHugo Ball [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q70989] was kind of the daddy of us all, and he was kind of a very fine dadaist who lived in Switzerland [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q39] during the first World War [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q361] and sort of did the first sound poems. It was very strange, if you read Hugo Ball's diaries, it's rather fascinating because it was more or less, when he gave these sort of his final public reading he got really carried away in the midst of a sound poem an kind of got thrown back into sort of a--how to put this--an earlier space in his mind, anyways he went back and started remembering all sorts of things right back through his life doing this sound poem. As you read the diaries, there's a real feeling he became totally terrified of what was happening to him. Because at that point he then just split and left the whole thing behind. So this is kind of for Hugo Ball. It's called \\\"Dada Lama\\\". This poem's gone through so many changes I can't even keep track of it anymore.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:30:28\\nReads [sections of Dada Lama: a sound sequence in six parts, collected later in Selected Writing: As Elected]. \\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:33:38\\nI'm going to read some poems now from my collection, Pointing, which I see is for sale out on the other room. These poems are, for the most part, quiet poems, poems of my own measured voice. They're poems that originated a few years ago and they came out of the general West Coast poetry scene that was going on very intensely--hello?\\n\\nGeorge Bowering\\n00:34:09\\nIt’s hard to hear... \\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:34:10\\nIs it hard to hear back there with this? \\n\\nUnknown\\n00:34:12\\nAmbient Sound [voices and laughter].\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:34:20\\nI'll try--If I talk louder into the mic can you hear that? Keep letting me know, if you can't hear, shout. I'd like to read this one into the mic because they aren't poems that can be shouted. This one is called \\\"Situation\\\" and it derives from an experience I had in Mexico [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q96] many years ago. \\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:35:06\\nReads poem \\\"Situation” [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:36:24\\nHow's that for sound, can you hear that? \\\"Insights\\\".\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:36:36\\nReads \\\"Insights\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface]/\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:36:55\\nI'm very sentimental [audience laughter.] This is an early poem I wrote, it's called \\\"Homage to Machado\\\". It's really a translation of a poem by Antonio Machado [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243771], the Spanish poet. I've not only translated it, I've switched the central image, but used his statement. His image was that of a boat going across a lake and he looked out and saw the ripple of the water behind it and  then commented on that. But I changed the metaphor.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:37:45\\nReads \\\"Hommage to Machado\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:38:17\\nReads \\\"Remains\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:39:08\\nReads \\\"Total Presence\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:40:05\\nA very small poem called \\\"Witness\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:40:07\\nReads \\\"Witness\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:40:38\\nAnd this one, called \\\"Profile\\\". I'll read it without the mic.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:40:45\\nReads \\\"Profile\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nUnknown Audience Member 1\\n00:41:32\\nHave you ever thought of pausing it and--\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:41:34\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:41:37\\nWe thought of reading all of our quiet poems at the beginning, and then getting louder and louder and louder, but we thought this would get you too excited and you'd go out onto the street and...[audience laughter.] So we decided to mix them all up and you'll get everything quiet and loud and funny and very serious and that's part of it,you know,getting them all at once all in juxtaposed relationships.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:42:12\\nThis way you can sort of do what you want with which ones you wanna do. It's very hard to listen to a poetry reading all the way through. I can never hack poetry readings myself [audience laughter]. What Lionel and I are trying to do is maybe do you a favour so you can listen for a longer time maybe [audience laughter].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:42:32\\nWho locked the door? [Audience laughter].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:42:37\\nAmong my poems from the last year which I lost, was a very long thing called The Martyrology which included all these things about a whole series of saints I'd evolved. Which had included St. Reet and St. Ranglehold and St. And and it's kind of too complicated to go into what they all sort of were doing, but St. Ranglehold came from the word 'stranglehold' and the rest you can kind of figure out maybe.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:43:05\\nReads unnamed poem from The Martyrology series.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:43:56\\nWas that loud enough by the way?\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:43:58\\nCould you hear that? It's hard to tell from behind here. This is a poem called \\\"Ruth\\\" and it was for a good friend of mine, David W. Harris, who now calls himself David W. And it begins with a quote from Ruth.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:44:20\\nReads \\\"Ruth\\\" [from Ruth].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:46:20\\nReads unnamed poem. \\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:46:57\\nAnd this uh, this is a poem that begins with a line from a poem by bill bissett [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4911496]. Actually--\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:47:01\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:47:18\\nReads unnamed poem. \\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:49:43\\nWe'll try it up there. It's called \\\"Color Problem\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:49:49\\nReads \\\"Color Problem\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:50:06\\nThis, I'm going to read a concrete poem now. bp inspires me so much with his concrete poetry that I have begun to write concrete poetry too. Some concrete poetry is purely visual and you can't read it, it's to go on walls and things like that. Other concrete poetry is so sonic that it's nothing really to look at, but occasionally you can get the two combined so that you have something on the page which also is something else when read, but the two correspond. This one that I've got is to some extent like that, on the page it's called \\\"Studies in Interior Decoration Border Design\\\" because of the way it looks on the page, which of course being an audience at a poetry reading, you aren't concerned with. But I'll read it  and it does work, I think, sonically too. It's called \\\"The Woman Who Reminded Him of the Woman Who\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:51:20\\nReads \\\"The Woman Who Reminded Him of the Woman Who\\\" [published as “The Woman Who” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:53:14\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts to bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-0262.mp3 00:37:59].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:53:25\\nThis one is called \\\"It\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:53:28\\nReads \\\"It\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:54:02\\nA lot of the poems in this book--\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:54:05\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to approximately 00:53:13].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:54:15\\nThis is called the \\\"Kinetic Poem\\\", my poem is called the \\\"Kinetic Poem\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:54:26\\nReads \\\"Kinetic Poem\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface] with bpNichol.\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:55:57\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:56:00\\nKon Ichikawa is the name of a Japanese film maker that made a film about the Olympics [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5389]. Okay? How should we start this out--'all together now?' [audience laughter].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:56:15\\nThink--think, pretend you're at the Olympics. [Audience laughter].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:56:23\\n“Karnijakawa--Karnijakawa”, follow me. \\n\\nbpNichol\\n00:56:30\\nChants \\\"Kon Ichikawa” pronounced as “Karnijakawa\\\" repeatedly with Lionel Kearns and the audience.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:57:11\\nThank you.\\n\\nAudience\\n00:57:13\\nApplause [cut off].\\n \\nUnknown Audience Member 2\\n00:57:16\\nKarni-jakawa!\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:57:22\\nCarne means meat in Spanish. I was at Louis Dudek's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3261787], at one of his courses today and we were talking and the students were talking and so on and I was reading a few poems, and they said, \\\"Why are you so pessimistic about things?\\\" and I'm not so pessimistic, and I'll read a poem now that's got an up-beat ending [audience laughter].\\n \\nUnknown Audience Member 3\\n00:57:59\\nWhat led them to deduce your pessimism?\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:58:00\\nI read a poem without an upbeat ending [audience laughter]. This is another media parable. And it's called \\\"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\\\" and naturally, it derives from a movie. Um, the movie called The Seven Samurai [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q189540]. [Audience laughter.] Or you've probably seen that, there's a,Hollywood [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34006] derived a few movies from that, one of them called The Magnificent Seven [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19069] or something like that. The original one was a Western made in Japan [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q17], and Hollywood stole the idea and made a Western in the West. Now I've taken the same situation, the same story and given it a Northern locale. And that's why it's called \\\"The Seventh Seal\\\" [Audience laughter]. It was published in this New Romans thing, and that makes it an anti-American poem, but it really, when I wrote it, I didn't have this book in mind. But they paid me $30 so [audience laughter] I put it in here.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:59:38\\nReads \\\"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\\\" [published as “The Seventh Seal” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; reading cut off].\\n \\nEND\\n01:01:57\\n\",\"notes\":\"Lionel Kearns reads from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967) and poems published later in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures, and other Assaults on the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969). bpNichol reads from a wide variety of his works, some published, some unpublished, including Dada Lama (England: Tlaloc, 1968), The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid (Weed/Flower, 1970), Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer (Weed/Flower Press, 1973), and Selected Writing: As Elected (Talonbooks, 1980). Many unnamed poems may belong to two of Nichol’s series, the Captain Poetry Poems The Martyrology.\\n\\n00:00- George Bowering introduces BP Nichol and Lionel Kearns. [INDEX: second reading in third series, rumours, BP Nichol, Lionel Kearns, intermission, reading, poet, joint reading, sense, Kearns: linguist, social care of human beings, Nichol: radical therapist, border-blur poems, reading together night before at Carleton University, Kearns: Vancouver Renaissance, Canadian poetry in 1960’s, Nichol: east, Vancouver, born, opening ears, reading four hours.]\\n02:25- Annotation: Recording drops in volume, “looped” recording begins where another part of the reading can be heard in the background of the recording.\\n02:26- Lionel Kearns introduces “Telephone”. [INDEX: media parable, set of poems, new collection to be released soon [perhaps The birth of God (Trigram Press, 1968) or Trips out (Western Press, 1968); from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n02:49- Lionel Kearns reads “Telephone”.\\n07:04- BP Nichol introduces unknown poem, first line “Out of the dark wood workings of the mind’s memories, we are alone...”. [INDEX: strange pastiche, loosing work written    \\tover past year, selected weirdness; from unknown source.]\\n07:23- BP Nichol reads unknown poem, first line “Out of the dark wood workings of the    mind’s memories, we are alone...”.\\n08:54- BP Nichol reads “Uneven Song”. *Note recording is looping over itself, so both BP and Lionel can be heard reading other poems in the background. [INDEX: from unknown source.]\\n09:28- BP Nichol reads unknown poem, first line “Out of the middle the ends are taken...”.\\n10:26- Lionel Kearns reads “Word”. [INDEX: from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n11:27- BP Nichol introduces “Poem found among the ruins”. [INDEX: series of quiet poems, loud poems; from unknown source.]\\n11:43- BP Nichol reads “Poem found among the ruins”. [INDEX: from unknown source]\\n12:19- BP Nichol reads “The Business”. [INDEX: from unknown source]\\n12:43- BP Nichol reads “Geners” [sp?] first line “Each human body a temple of the holy   ghost...” [INDEX: from unknown source]\\n13:51- BP Nichol reads “Computer Riddle Poem”. [INDEX: from Konfessions of an \\tElizabethan Fan Dancer (Weed Flower Press, 1973).]\\n15:05- BP Nichol introduces “Labia Digital” [sp?.] [INDEX: piece of sculpture, Haida art        exhibition, West Coast Indian art, carved figure of a woman, poem; from unknown       \\tsource.]\\n15:55- BP Nichol reads “Labia Digital” [sp?.]\\n16:41- BP Nichol reads “The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid”. [INDEX: published in a booklet The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid (Weed/Flower, 1970), and later    published in Craft Dinner: Stories & Texts 1966-1976 (Aya Press, 1978).]\\n20:46- Lionel Kearns introduces “Expression”. [INDEX: from By the Light of the Silvery\\nMcLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n21:32- Lionel Kearns reads “Expression”\\n22:39- Lionel Kearns introduces “Transport”. [INDEX: clap in between poems, good poems, media parable; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]   \\n22:56- Lionel Kearns reads “Transport”.\\n26:33- BP Nichol introduces chant poem “umpa-pa beach park...”. [INDEX: personal poems, written at Port Dover, on Lake Eerie, beach, sunburns, summer, song “Over the white  cliffs of Dover” (perhaps Vera Lynn’s “There’ll Be Bluebirds Over The White Cliffs of Dover”), Pussycats (unknown reference), phrase “podunk”, playing football, weird; from unknown source.]\\n27:25- BP Nichol sings sound poem “umpa-pa beach park...”.\\n29:06- BP Nichol introduces “Dadalama”. [INDEX: Hugo Ball, dadaist, Switzerland, World War I, first sound poems, strange, Hugo Ball’s diaries, final public reading, sound poem, earlier space in his mind, remembering, terrified, left poetry, poem’s changes; originally published in Dada Lama (England: Tlaloc, 1968), collected in Selected Writing: As Elected (Talonbooks, 1980).]\\n30:28- BP Nichol reads “Dadalama”.\\n30:52- CUT in tape, silence.\\n30:53- Recording starts again, silence.\\n33:38- Lionel Kearns introduces “Situation”. [INDEX: new collection Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967), for sale at reading, quiet poems, measured voice, West Coast poetry scene, shouting, experience in Mexico; from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n35:06- Lionel Kearns reads “Situation”.\\n36:36- Lionel Kearns reads “Insights”. [INDEX: from By the Light of the Silvery McLune:\\nMedia Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The\\nDaylight Press, 1969).]   \\n36:55- Lionel Kearns introduces “Homage to Machado” [INDEX: early poem, translation of a poem by Antonio Machado, Spanish poet, switched central image, boat, lake, ripple of water, changed metaphor; from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n37:45- Lionel Kearns reads “Homage to Machado”.\\n38:17- Lionel Kearns reads “Remains”. [INDEX:  from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n39:08- Lionel Kearns reads “Total Presence”. [INDEX:  from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n40:05- Lionel Kearns reads “Witness”. [INDEX:  from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n40:38- Lionel Kearns reads “Profile”. [INDEX:  from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n41:32- Unknown audience member asks question, but is CUT by the recording.\\n41:37- Lionel Kearns answers question [INDEX: reading order, quiet poems, louder, street, excited, loud, funny, serious poems, juxtaposed relationships.]\\n42:12- BP Nichol answers question [INDEX: difficulty listening to long poetry readings, listening.]\\n42:32- Lionel Kearns makes a joke [INDEX: locked doors.]\\n42:37- BP Nichol introduces “Martyrology”. [INDEX: lost poems, long poem, series of saints, St. Reet, St. Ranglehold, St. And, complicated, Stranglehold; from an early version of The Martyrology (Coach House Press, 1972).]\\n43:05- BP Nichol reads part of “Martyrology”, line “Days numbered as the years are even, time cannot withstand such order. St. Reat...”.\\n43:58- BP Nichol introduces “Ruth”. [INDEX: loudness of reading, good friend David W.     Harris, quote from Ruth; most likely from Ruth (Toronto: Fleye Press, 1967) (book       \\tunavailable to researcher).]\\n44:20- BP Nichol reads “Ruth”.\\n46:20- BP Nichol reads first line “Measure the clock, talk back time...” [INDEX: from unknown source.]\\n46:57- BP Nichol introduces first line “Living now in terrible times, the TV talks from the  \\tnext room...” [INDEX: line from a poem by bill bissett, CUT in recording and the rest of    the explanation is cut out; from unknown source.]\\n47:18- BP Nichol reads poem with first line “Living now in terrible times, the TV talks from the next room...”\\n49:43- Lionel Kearns introduces “Color Problem”. [INDEX:  from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n40:49- Lionel Kearns reads “Color Problem”.\\n50:06- Lionel Kearns introduces “The Woman Who” [INDEX: concrete poem, BP Nichol\\ninspires, purely visual, to hang on the wall, sonic, or both visual and sonic, page title\\n“Studies in Interior Decoration Border Design”; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n51:20- Lionel Kearns reads “The Woman Who”.\\n53:14- CUT in tape, silence, from this point to 54:05.82 is actually from a part in the second half of the recording from 38:10.41 onwards.\\n53:25- Lionel Kearns reads “It”. [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n54:02- Lionel Kearns begins to explain next poem, but there is a cut in the tape and the original recording continues.\\n54:15- Lionel Kearns introduces “Kinetic Poem”. [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press,\\n1967).]\\n54:26- Lionel Kearns and BP Nichol read “Kinetic Poem”.\\n55:57- Distortion in recording.\\n56:00- BP Nichol introduces unknown poem “Karnijikawa” [sp?.]  [INDEX: Japanese filmmaker, Olympics 1964, audience participation; from unknown source.]\\n56:23- BP Nichol, Lionel Kearns and audience chant “Karnijikawa”.\\n57:22- Lionel Kearns introduces “The Parable of the Seventh Seal”. [INDEX: ‘karne’ means meat in Spanish, Louis Dudek’s courses (at McGill University), students, pessimism, student question, reading poems, up-beat ending; published as “The Seventh Seal” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n57:59- Unknown audience member asks question. [INDEX: pessimism]\\n58:00- Lionel Kearns answers question, continues to introduce “The Parable of the Seventh Seal”. [INDEX: upbeat ending, media parable, movie, “The Seven Samurai”, Hollywood, movie “The Magnificent Seven”, Western movie made in Japan, stolen by Hollywood, West, Northern locale, New Romans publishing, anti-American poem, $30 payment for story.]\\n59:38- Lionel Kearns reads “The Parable of the Seventh Seal”.\\n01:01:57.91- END OF RECORDING (story is cut short, continues in second part of reading).\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/bpnichol-and-lionel-kearns-at-sgwu-1968/#1\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://files.spokenweb.ca/concordia/sgw/audio/all_mp3/bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-026-2.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"files.spokenweb.ca>concordia>sgw>audio>all_mp3\",\"filename\":\"bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-026-2.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"00:46:47\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"112.3 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"bpNichol_lionel_kearns_i086-11-026-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2]\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:00:00\\nReads \\\"The Parable of the Seventh Seal\\\" [published as “The Seventh Seal” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; reading resumes from previous recording; audience laughter throughout].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:06:17\\nReads \\\"Historical Implications of Turnips\\\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:07:01\\nThis is called, for a reason I cannot remember at all, \\\"Cycle Number 22\\\".\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:07:13\\nReads \\\"Cycle Number 22\\\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer and published later in Selected Writing: As Elected].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:07:49\\nThis next poem's called \\\"The Child in Me\\\". It's kind of what all sound poetry's about anyways. Enough said.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:08:09\\nReads \\\"The Child in Me\\\" [from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:09:10\\nThis is a poem called \\\"The New New Captain Poetry Blues\\\" and it's for David McFadden [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5237344]. Captain Poetry is kind of this person that happened a long time ago in a magazine I used to edit called Ganglia, and David McFadden is still happening in Hamilton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q133116], and is probably Canada's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16] best poet and what else is there to say? Oh yes, a little footnote, there's a place in here called Plunkett [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2202272] which really exists and my mother was born there strangely enough. This is all about that.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:09:48\\nReads [sections of \\\"The New New Captain Poetry Blues: An Undecided Novel\\\" from The Captain Poetry Poems].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:53\\nThis poem is called \\\"Split\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:12:59\\nReads \\\"Split\\\" [published as “Personality” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n\\nAudience\\n00:14:05\\nLaughter.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:14:07\\nPeople occasionally, when they're put on the spot to ask me questions, say \\\"What's it like to be a poet\\\", or \\\"Is it true that so and so and so and so...\\\" and things like that, questions that are impossible to answer. But there is something about being a poet, and this is one of the things, this is one of the differences, and this poem is called \\\"The Difference\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:14:40\\nReads \\\"The Difference\\\" [published as “Roles” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface; audience laughter throughout].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:15:40\\nThis is an older poem, it's a Christmas poem, it was written at the time when [Khrushchev (?)] got his call down, also about the time of the American intervention in the Dominican Republic [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q786], where the Americans came in because they knew that there were Cuban influences, or the Cubans were behind the so-called rebels in the Dominican Republic and one of the proofs was that some of the rebels had been seen wearing green uniforms [audience laughter]. Of course, most military uniforms are kind of green, but they pointed out that some of Fidel Castro's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11256] soldiers had green uniforms too. But this is a Christmas poem.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:16:51\\nReads \\\"Christmas Poem” [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:17:57\\nI make most of my living teaching at Simon Fraser University [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q201603] and we have some troubles out there sometimes. One of the things that troubled us was the fact that when we were giving lectures to large crowds, we sometimes used the public address system and we found out that back--that the public address system was hooked up with-- operated with an FM band, and the, all your lectures could be picked up on an FM set, for example, an FM set in the President's office. We've since lost that President. And this is called \\\"University\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:18:55\\nReads \\\"University\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:19:24\\nThis one is called \\\"Economic Chronology\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:19:29\\nReads \\\"Economic Chronology\\\" [from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:19:42\\nThis one's called \\\"Alimony, Old Baloney\\\".\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:19:51\\nReads \\\"Alimony, Old Baloney\\\" [most likely from the Captain Poetry series]. \\n \\nUnknown\\n00:24:14\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nbpNichol\\n00:24:15\\nReads unnamed “Captain Poetry” poem.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:26:25\\nWell if bp is going to keep reading his Captain Poetry poems, I'm going to read my “Ventilation Parable”. This is an epic.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:26:43\\nReads \\\"Ventilation Parable\\\" [published as “Ventilation” in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:31:19\\nThis poem is called \\\"Creation\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:31:24\\nReads \\\"Creation\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:31:52\\nI'm going to do that dangerous thing and read a poem I wrote last night. That's [inaudible]. \\n \\nUnknown\\n00:31:59\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to 00:31:40].\\n\\nLionel Kearns\\n00:32:00\\nReads section of “Creation” [from Pointing].\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:32:18\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Recording cuts back to 00:31:52]. \\n\\nAudience\\n00:32:19\\nLaughter.\\n\\nbpNichol\\n00:32:21\\nI'm going to do that dangerous thing and read a poem I wrote last night [laughter]. That's waking Lionel up at 7:30 this morning which he didn't quite forgive me for. It starts off with a quote from a poem by Bobby Hoat [?.] Well, yesterday we were up at Carlton doing a reading there. It's a poem called \\\"Zero Phase\\\". There's a town referred to in here called Vars [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3554856] which happens to be where he lives. It's a very groovy little place, just outside of...\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:32:51\\nCan you hear?\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:32:52\\nIs that okay? If I talk kind of into it like this?\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:33:04\\nReads \\\"Zero Phase\\\".\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:34:36\\nThis is a poem called \\\"Returning\\\". It sort of was written after I wrote a book of poetry called Journeying and the Returns.\\n \\nbpNichol\\n00:34:58\\nReads \\\"Returning\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:37:49\\nI'm going--I'm going to read a series of poems again, from my collection Pointing. This one is called \\\"It\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:38:13\\nReads \\\"It\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:38:45\\nA lot of the poems in this book derive their images from dreams, and this is a poem which is about a dream I had. And it's--I've interpreted the dream. Some extent of the poem--I interpreted as a kind of message about where I get my images for my poems, or where I got them at this particular period. And I called \\\"Ambergris, a Statement on Source\\\". Ambergris, being that stuff that sick whales cough up and which floats around on the ocean and it's very smelly stuff but it's very valuable stuff if you find it floating around because you can sell it for a great deal of money to perfume factories. And that's the interpretation of the series of images that follow.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:39:55\\nReads \\\"Ambergris, a Statement on Source\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:40:42\\nAnd this one, called \\\"Contra Diction\\\", it's a poem that is often anthologized. It's a poem that I like because I think it does what usually I'm trying to do in poems. It's not a very big poem, but it's neat, I think.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:41:12\\nReads \\\"Contra Diction\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:41:40\\nThis one is called \\\"Both\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:41:45\\nReads \\\"Both\\\" [from Pointing].\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:42:06\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:42:07\\nThis is an early poem that I wrote, it fits into a series of poems that I was writing at the time in which I was dealing with my own background, trying to come to terms with things like my own Catholic background, and as you will see the central image is a Christian one. The situation is the fairgrounds actual--the actual situation is the PNE- the Pacific National Exhibition [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4179402]. It's an easter poem called \\\"Friday at the Ex\\\"\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:43:07\\nReads \\\"Friday at the Ex\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:44:34\\nAnd this one, called \\\"Prototypes\\\".\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:44:41\\nReads \\\"Prototypes\\\" [from Pointing].\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:45:33\\nAnd I think this is the last one I'll read, it's called \\\"End Poem\\\". An appropriate title.\\n \\nLionel Kearns\\n00:45:42\\nReads \\\"End Poem\\\" [from Pointing].\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:46:04\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \\n\\nbpNichol\\n00:46:05\\nReads unnamed poem. \\n \\nEND\\n00:46:47\",\"notes\":\"Lionel Kearns reads from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967) and poems published later in By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures, and other Assaults on the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969). bpNichol reads from a wide variety of his works, some published, some unpublished, including Dada Lama (England: Tlaloc, 1968), The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid (Weed/Flower, 1970), Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer (Weed/Flower Press, 1973), and Selected Writing: As Elected (Talonbooks, 1980). Many unnamed poems may belong to two of Nichol’s series, the Captain Poetry Poems The Martyrology.\\n\\n00:00- Recording begins mid-sentence, Lionel Kearns continues reading “The Parable of the Seventh Seal”. [INDEX: from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables,\\nPoems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n06:17- BP Nichol reads “Historical Implications of Turnips”. [INDEX: from unknown source.]\\n07:02- BP Nichol introduces “Cycle Number 22”. [INDEX: title unknown; published later in Selected Writing: As Elected (Talon, 1980).]\\n07:13- BP Nichol reads “Cycle Number 22”.\\n07:49- BP Nichol introduces “The Child in Me”. [INDEX: sound poetry; from Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer, Weed Flower Press, 1973).]\\n08:09- BP Nichol reads “The Child in Me”.\\n09:10- BP Nichol introduces “The New New Captain Poetry Blues”. [INDEX: For David        McFadden, Captain Poetry, magazine Ganglia, Hamilton, Canada’s best poet, footnote,    Plunkett: place where Nichol’s mother was born; from The Captain Poetry Poem series, blewointmentpress, 1968).]\\n09:48- BP Nichol reads “The New New Canadian Captain Poetry Blues”.\\n12:53- Lionel Kearns reads “Split”.\\n14:07- Lionel Kearns introduces “The Difference” (published as “Roles”). [INDEX: questions, what it’s like to be a poet, impossible to answer, difference of being a poet; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n14:40- Lionel Kearns reads “The Difference” [Recording is often CUT to remove laughter and applause from the recording.]\\n15:40- Lionel Kearns introduce “Christmas Poem”. [INDEX: older poem, Christmas poem, Coustchef [unknown   reference], American intervention in the Dominican Republic, Cuban influence, rebels, green uniforms, military uniforms, Fidel Castro; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n16:51- Lionel Kearns reads “Christmas Poem”.\\n17:57- Lionel Kearns introduces “University”. [INDEX: teaching at Simon Frasier University, troubles, lectures using the public address system, FM band, President’s office; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n18:55- Lionel Kearns reads “University”.\\n19:24- Lionel Kearns reads “Economic Chronolgy”. [INDEX: from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n19:42- BP Nichol reads “Alimony, Old Baloney”. [INDEX: from unknown source]\\n24:15- CUT in tape, BP Nichol reads first line “One day CP hitched a ride...” [INDEX:\\nCaptain Poetry, Bill Bissett, David McFadden; from unknown source, perhaps from      \\tCaptain Poetry Poem series.]\\n26:25- Lionel Kearns introduces “Ventilation”. [INDEX: BP Nichol, Captain Poetry poems, epic, parable; from By the Light of the Silvery McLune: Media Parables, Poems, Signs, Gestures and other Assaults of the Interface (The Daylight Press, 1969).]\\n16:43- Lionel Kearns reads “Ventilation Parable”.\\n31:19- Lionel Kearns reads “Creation”. [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n31:52- BP Nichol introduces “Zero Phase”. Recording becomes inaudible as sound warps. CUT in tape. [INDEX: poem written night before; from unknown source.]\\n32:00- Lionel Kearns reads first line “Imagination explodes, they grow old quick and die...” [INDEX: from unknown source.]\\n32:21- Tape rewinds to BP Nichol introducing poem at 31:52.\\n32:21- BP Nichol introduces “Zero Phase”. [INDEX: poem written night before, Lionel Kearns, morning, quote from Bobby Hoat [unknown reference], Carleton University reading, town Vars.]\\n32:51- Lionel Kearns asks audience if they can hear.\\n33:04- BP Nichol reads “Zero Phase”.\\n34:36- BP Nichol introduces “Returning”. [INDEX: book of poetry Journeying & the Returns (Coach House Press, 1967).]\\n34:58- BP Nichol reads “Returning”.\\n37:49- Lionel Kearns introduces “It”. [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).] NOTE:\\nThe part of the recording is repeated from I086-11-026.1 (the first part of this reading) from 53:28.68, and Cuts out again at 54:02.90.\\n38:13- Lionel Kearns reads “It”.\\n38:45- Lionel Kearns introduces “Ambergris, a Statement on Source”. [INDEX: dream,     poems in book, interpretations, messages, images, whales, ocean, money, perfume    factory; from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n39:55- Lionel Kearns reads “Ambergris, a Statement on Source”.\\n40:42- Lionel Kearns introduces “Contra-Diction”. [INDEX: anthologized, poem; from\\nPointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n41:12- Lionel Kearns reads “Contra-Diction”.\\n41:40- Lionel Kearns reads “Both”. [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n42:07- Lionel Kearns introduces “Friday at the Ex”. [INDEX; early poem, series of poems, background, Catholic background, central image is Christian, fairgrounds, Pacific National Exhibition, easter poem; .] from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n43:07- Lionel Kearns reads “Friday at the Ex”.\\n43:34- Lionel Kearns reads “Prototypes” [INDEX: from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n45:33- Lionel Kearns introduces “End Poem”. [INDEX: last poem in reading, appropriate title; from Pointing (Ryerson Press, 1967).]\\n45:42- Lionel Kearns reads “End Poem”.\\n46:05- BP Nichol reads line “I wanted to forget you, so I tried to erase your name...”. [INDEX: from unknown source.]\\n46:47.84- END OF RECORDING.\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"}]"],"score":5.636241},{"id":"1276","cataloger_name":["Masoumeh,Zaare"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"source_collection_label":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"collection_contributing_unit":["Records Management and Archives"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":[""],"collection_source_collection_description":["The fonds consists of some administrative records of the SGWU Department of English and the Concordia Department of English between 1971 and 2000. It also consists of some SGWU Department of English records related to student academic activities in the 1940s and to public readings and lectures, and a few interviews, produced between 1966 and 1972. The fonds mainly includes minutes of departmental meetings and some course timetables. It also includes some student papers in bound volumes and 63 sound recordings (80 audio reels) mainly composed of poetry readings (see the Concordia SpokenWeb project which uses this material) but also a few lectures given at SGWU. There are also loose typed sheets describing some of the SGWU poetry readings."],"collection_source_collection_id":["I086"],"persistent_url":["http://archives.concordia.ca/I086"],"item_title":["Eli Mandel and D.G. Jones at Sir George Williams University, The Poetry Series, 7 March 1969"],"item_title_source":["Cataloguer"],"item_title_note":["\"JONES & MANDEL I006/SR43\" written on sticker on the spine of the tape's box. JONES & MANDEL refers to D.G. Jones and Eli Mandel. \"I006-11-043\" written on sticker on the reel\n\n\"Poetry - 7th Mar/69 Eli Mandel & Jones -1 I086-11-034\" written on the spine of the tape's box. Jones refers to D.G. Jones. \"1 Mandel I086-11-034\" written on sticker on the reel. \"RT 510\" written on sticker on the front of the tape's box and written on the back of the tape's box."],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Documentary recording"],"item_series_title":["The Poetry Series"],"item_subseries_title":["Poetry 3"],"item_identifiers":["[I006-11-043, I086-11-034]"],"creator_names":["Jones, Douglas Gordon","Mandel, Eli"],"creator_names_search":["Jones, Douglas Gordon","Mandel, Eli"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/41883605\",\"name\":\"Jones, Douglas Gordon\",\"dates\":\"1929-2016\",\"notes\":\"Poet and critic Douglas Gordon (D.G.) Jones was born in Bancroft Ontario in 1929. He completed his B.A. at McGill University in 1952 and an M.A. at Queen’s University in 1954, writing a thesis on Ezra Pound. Jones’ first poems were encouraged by Louis Dudek and Raymond Souster in his publications in Contact Press and Delta. His first collection of poetry, Frost on the Sun (Contact Press, 1957) was followed by The Sun is Axeman (University of Toronto Press, 1961), Phrases from Orpheus (Oxford University Press, 1967) and a winner of a Governor General’s Award for Poetry, Under the Thunder of the Flowers Light Up the Earth (Coach House Press, 1977), A Throw of Particles (General Publishing Company, 1983), Balthazar (Coach House Press, 1988) and The floating garden (Coach House Press, 1995). Jones taught first at the Royal Military College from 1954-5, the Ontario Agricultural College from 1955-1961, he moved to Quebec and taught at Bishop’s University from 1961-1963, and finally at the Universite de Sherbooke, from 1963-1994. His book, Butterfly on rock: a study of themes and images in Canadian literature (University of Toronto Press, 1970) on Canadian criticism has proven to be important in the shaping of that field's literature. He founded Ellipse in 1969, the only Canadian magazine in which both English and French poetry was reciprocally translated. Jones’ own translations include Paul-Marie Lapointe’s The terror of the snows (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1976), The march to love: Selected poems of Gaston Miron (International Poetry Forum, 1986), Normand de Bellefeuille’s Categorics, one, two & three (Coach House Press, 1992) which won the Governor General’s Award for translation and Emile Martel’s For orchestra and solo poet (Muses’ Co, 1996). D.G. Jones was made an Officer of the Order of Canada in 2007. Jones died in 2016. \",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Author\",\"Performer\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/59095399\",\"name\":\"Mandel, Eli\",\"dates\":\"1922-1992\",\"notes\":\"Poet, critic and editor Eli Mandel was born Elias Wolf Mandel in Estevan, Saskatchewan in 1922. He grew up in Regina, until the Second World War when he joined the Army Medical Corps. Upon his return, he studied at the University of Saskatchewan, earning his B.A. in 1949, going on to complete his M.A. in 1950. Mandel then moved east, where he received a Ph.D. in 1957 from the University of Toronto. His early poetry was published in magazines like CIV/N and Contact, and in 1954 Contact Press published his collection “Minotaur poems” in Trio with Gael Turnbull and Phyllis Webb. Mandel taught English at College Militaire Royal de Saint Jean, University of Alberta and York University in Toronto, as well as serving as visiting professor and writer-in-residence later on in his career. He also wrote many important essays on Canadian literature, art and society, promoting Canadian writers. Poetry 62 (Ryerson Press, 1961), Mandel’s first anthology, co-edited with Jean-Guy Pilon, collected the works of (then) little-known writers Al Purdy, Milton Acorn, D.G. Jones, Alden Nowlan, Leonard Cohen and John Robert Colombo. His second collection of poems was published in Fuseli Poems (Contact Press, 1960), followed by Black and Secret Man (Ryerson Press, 1964), and An Idiot Joy (Hurtig Press, 1967), which won the Governor General’s award. A collection of eight essays by Mandel that had been presented as radio talks for CBC was published in Criticism: the silent-speaking words in 1966 (CBC). His later anthologies include Five modern Canadian poets (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1970), English poems of the twentieth century (Macmillan, 1971), Contexts of Canadian Criticism (University of Chicago Press, 1971), Eight more Canadian poets (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1972), and Poets of contemporary Canada: 1960-1970 (Macmillan, 1972) which published Joe Rosenblatt and bill bissett’s first collections of poetry. Mandel’s other works include Stony Plain (Porcepic Press, 1973), Crusoe (Anansi, 1973), Out of Place (Porcepic Press, 1977), the long poem Mary Midnight (Coach House Press, 1979), Life Sentence (Porcepic Press, 1981), Dreaming backwards: selected poems (General Publishing, 1981), the collections of essays Another Time (Porcepic, 1977), and The family romance (Turnstone, 1986) as well as a book-length study of his colleague, Irving Layton called The Poetry of Irving Layton (Coles, 1969). An important figure in Canadian literature, Eli Mandel died in Toronto on September 3, 1992.\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Author\",\"Performer\"]}]"],"contributors_names":["Unspecified","Bowering, George"],"contributors_names_search":["Unspecified","Bowering, George"],"contributors":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Unspecified \",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Recordist\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/34469976\",\"name\":\"Bowering, George\",\"dates\":\"1935-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Series organizer\",\"Presenter\"]}]"],"Presenter_name":["Bowering, George"],"Recordist_name":["Unspecified "],"Series_organizer_name":["Bowering, George"],"Performance_Date":[1969],"material_description":["[{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"Scotch\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"3 3/4 ips\",\"sound_quality\":\"Good\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"\",\"track_configuration\":\"Half-track\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"},{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"Scotch\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"3 3/4 ips\",\"sound_quality\":\"Good\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"First part of the tape is repeated from the end of I086-11-034\",\"track_configuration\":\"Half-track\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"}]"],"material_designations":["Reel to Reel","Reel to Reel"],"physical_compositions":["Magnetic Tape","Magnetic Tape"],"recording_type":["Analogue","Analogue"],"AV_type":["Audio","Audio"],"playback_mode":["Mono","Mono"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"1969 3 7\",\"type\":\"Performance Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"Previous researcher\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22080570\",\"venue\":\"Hall Building\",\"notes\":\"Exact venue location unknown\",\"address\":\"1455, Boul de Maisonneuve Ouest, Montreal, Quebec, Canada\",\"latitude\":\" 45.4972758\",\"longitude\":\" -73.57893043\"}]"],"Address":["1455, Boul de Maisonneuve Ouest, Montreal, Quebec, Canada"],"Venue":["Hall Building"],"City":["Montreal, Quebec"],"content_notes":["Eli Mandel reads from An Idiot Joy (Hurtig, 1967), Black and Secret Man (1964), Trio:  First Poems (Contact Press, 1954), as well as poems later published in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New (Anansi, 1973). D.G. Jones reads from Phrases from Orpheus (Oxford University Press, 1967), as well as a few that were published later in Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth (Coach House Press, 1977) and an unnamed long poem that may have been published in Poetry 62 (Ryerson Press 1961)."],"contents":["eli_mandel_i086-11-034.mp3 [File 1 of 2]\n \nGeorge Bowering\n00:00:00\n...start with the poesy, I've been asked to announce that on Friday, i.e., what's this the seventh? Two weeks from tonight, March the 21st at 9 o’clock. in Room 653, [Barnes (?)] willing, there will be a program, I guess within the auspices of the Fine Arts department, the Ira Cohen [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1097790], New York [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q60] film maker, and poet will be showing three of his films, as far as I know for the first time in Montreal [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q340]. That's two weeks tonight at 9 in 653. When I was asked to introduce Eli Mandel [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3050883], and D.G. Jones [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5203595], I said, 'that's ridiculous', Canadian poetry being the way it is, they already know each other. And after the moment of hilarity I was brought to my senses, and I began to think that it really did make a lot of sense that we do have Doug Jones and Eli Mandel reading on the same program. I can remember in 1961 when Poetry 62 came out, Canadian poetry being the way it is [audience laughter], Poetry 62 was edited by Jean-Guy Pilon [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3166089] I believe and Eli Mandel, being a bilingual book, and at the time the poem that struck me as the most interesting was the long poem by D.G. Jones, the most interesting in that anthology, and I therefore, felt kind of warm, without having them, to both of them to Doug's poem and Eli's great taste for putting it in the anthology. And then I thought that there was this kind of confluence going on and I began to see all kinds of other things happening too, for instance, they both had their first books published by Contact Press, that published the first books of most of the important Canadian poets, and they now have seen their careers sort of criss-cross one another in a kind of a funny way because they each have three books, except that Eli has three and a third, which is also kind of Canadian, and I thought it was kind of interesting because not only is there a kind of parallel going on, and they both in 1967, for instance, turned out very good books of poetry, but there's a kind of uh, they'll be kind of an interesting contrast I think in tonight's program because I've always considered that Doug Jones is sort of the best of the Ontario [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1904] Wasp poets [audience laughter], and Eli Mandel is the best of the Western Jewish poets and they both deal with essential problems that seem to expose their two opposing and therefore contrary and conjugal, you might almost say, attitudes towards the business of writing poems. So we're going to start off with Eli's reading, and then have something like a ten minute break, and then we'll have Doug Jones' reading. I should mention that of those two books, Eli's is called An Idiot Joy and it shared the Governor General's Award [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q283256] given in 1968, and published by Hurtig, Edmonton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2096] publisher, who is very pleased to get the Governor General's Award, and Doug Jones' book is Phrases from Orpheus, published by Oxford Press [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q217595], two books that would be well worth investing both your heaven, forbid, money and your imagination upon. I'm probably not going to say anything before D.G. Jones comes to read, so I'm not expecting to come up here and spout for five or ten minutes before he reads and I'm not going to spout any longer before Eli reads. So I'd first like to introduce to you Mr. Eli Mandel.\n\nAudience\n00:05:01\nApplause. \n \nEli Mandel\n00:05:29\nI think George [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1239280] might have carried the parallel of contrasts and comparisons a little further had he wanted to, or chosen to, or had he known about certain very intimate details about Doug's life and my life. But I don't propose to go into those myself right now either [audience laughter]. Instead, I'm going to read, primarily from An Idiot Joy, but also from Black and Secret Man, which was an earlier book and also from one or two manuscript poems that I've been working on recently. I want to start with a poem called \"Signatures\" and although I can say a lot about a number of poems that I've written, I'm not sure I can say much about this except that as will be obvious to you I think, the imagery is drawn from the Vietnam [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q881] conflict, though I don't know that the poem is necessarily about that. Can you hear me with this mic? Some people at the back are saying 'no'. Can you hear me now?\n \nEli Mandel\n00:07:00\nReads \"Signatures\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:09:27\nThis poem is called \"Neither Here Nor There\".\n \nEli Mandel\n00:09:33\nReads \"Neither Here Nor There\" [published later in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:10:28\nThis is a poem from Black and Secret Man and it's called \"The Direction is North Until the Pole\", and I suppose it's one of the few poems I've written that I would call a Canadian poem, that is to say it draws on a number of specific images from the Canadian landscape and therefore I have to annotate this poem. I have to tell you that the Fleming mentioned in the last line of the poem was once a Minister of Finance in the federal government, that just proves how transient political poems really are. I think all the rest of this should be clear, hockey is a game that's played in Canada [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:11:16\nReads \"The Direction is North Until the Pole\" from Black and Secret Man.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:13:24\nThis is one of my prophetic poems. I think I've written a lot of really prophetic poems. This poem is called \"Departure\" and it tells about leaving Edmonton. Everybody who has read the poem believes that I wrote it when I decided to leave Edmonton, either for the first time or the second time, I've left there twice, as a matter of fact, I didn't write it when I decided to leave in Edmonton, I wrote it when I arrived in Edmonton.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:13:53\nReads \"Departure\" [from Black and Secret Man].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:14:37\nA little poem about one of my perversions, this is about making love to pregnant women, I think, I'm not sure if there's a technical name for that but the perversion appears in the poem. The poem's called \"Cassandra\" and it's about a prophetess, Cassandra [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q170779], you'll remember was the woman that Agamemnon [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q128176]  brought home with him to his wife, Clytemnestra [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q131157], and this, so angered Clytemnestra, aside from the fact that Agamemnon had killed one of their daughters, that she killed Agamemnon, but Cassandra was a Prophetess, like Prophetesses, was given the power to tell the truth and was never believed. Some of the imagery in this poem is taken from the story of Cassandra, and the rest from my perversions.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:15:39\nReads \"Cassandra\" [from Black and Secret Man].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:17:00\nReads \"The Madness of our Polity\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:17:46\n\"Whence Cometh Our Help?\", the title is taken from the Psalms [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q41064], and there are a number of images of the Psalms, in the poem. Or images from the Psalms.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:18:04\nReads \"Whence Cometh Our Help?\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:19:03\nThis poem is called \"Manner of Suicide\", and it's the closest thing I've come to writing a found poem, in that all the material in the poem, the words are taken from two sources, except for the first line. One is Karl Menninger's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3080926] Man Against Himself and the other, the Jewish Daily Prayer Book. There are twenty-six ways listed here of committing suicide, they're all ways that Menninger lists and documents, and he lists them in the order in which I give them here, and this list, which I give, is then followed by some comments he makes about those ways of committing suicide and a passage from the prayer book.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:20:11\nReads \"Manner of Suicide\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:23:24\nIn An Idiot Joy I wrote a number of poems which were, which used two primary images, the image of the moon and the image of the sea, and these are love poems. I suppose the interesting thing in them to me, aside from the personal sense that I feel about them, is that with each of the poems, whether it's with the image of the moon or the image of the sea, or both, I keep trying different technical things in the poetry, and so far as I'm concerned, I've done some more interesting technical things in this than anywhere else, but primarily, the poems talk about the moon and the sea, and seabirds and women and a woman.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:24:30\nReads \"Woman in the Moon\" from An Idiot Joy.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:26:12\nReads \"The Explanations of the Moon” [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:27:32\nThis is one of the sea poems, in the sequence, called \"Listen, the Sea\", and the title comes from King Lear [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q181598], though actually, I had become aware of it of course when I knew that Keats [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q82083] had written a sonnet using this, but the technique is neither Shakespearean nor Keatsean, nothing of the kind.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:28:00\nReads \"Listen, the Sea\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:29:01\nAnd \"Marina\", who is a daughter of the sea.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:29:09\nReads \"Marina\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:30:46\nWell something quite different. I think I should dedicate this to George Bowering, because I wrote the poem after I had been…\n\nUnknown\n00:30:56\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nEli Mandel\n00:30:57\nAnd I would have to apologize for this, but the last thing in the world that I wanted to do was apologize, I'd prefer anything but that, I mean this is pretty simple-minded simplistic psychology, of the worst order I suppose, I just--I'm writing a poem about how stupid I felt at that particular moment.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:31:17\nReads \"The Apology\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:34:34\nThis is the poem I like to think of as the one that one would put in a time capsule, it's called \"Letter to be Opened Later\" and presumably each one of us wants to immortalize oneself, and imagine, you know, two thousand years later the time capsule being opened and then they can read your letter. This is my letter, to be opened later.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:35:12\nReads \"Letter to be Opened Later\" [published later in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New ].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:36:09\nI'm going to read a lyric, it's a very short poem, but I'd like to read this one anyhow. It's called \"To My Children\" and it's based upon both an odd and rather terrifying coincidence in my life and a curious Jewish tradition. The Jewish tradition is that you name a child after the nearest dead relative, the relative who has died most recently and who is closest to one, and it so happened that my mother died, my daughter was born, my father died and my son was born. And I wrote this poem about the naming of the children. It's called \"To My Children\".\n \nEli Mandel\n00:37:08\nReads \"To My Children\" [from Black and Secret Man].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:38:00\nNow I'm going to finish this reading with two poems, one is called \"The Meaning of the I Ching\" and the other \"Cosmos: the Giant Rose\"--three poems, I'm sorry. I'm going to read \"Pictures in an Institution\" as well. \"The Meaning of the I Ching\", the I Ching [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q181937] as you probably know is a book of divination, it's the oldest book of divination known, and when I first heard about it, I looked at the book before I opened it and I wondered about the very simple notion of a book that old telling my future. How could I be contained in this ancient book? And I wrote this poem. Now it seems to me that there is something remarkable here, it's one claim I will make for the poem, at least, in the poem, is the first time I used the phrase \"earth upon earth\" and the very first hexagram that I cast when I opened the book. The book tells fortunes with what are called hexagrams and hexagrams are given various names, the very first one that I cast was the hexagram \"earth upon earth\" and that's simply something that happened whether it means that the poem is prophetic or magical, I don't know.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:39:36\nReads \"The Meaning of the I Ching\" [from An Idiot Joy].\n \nEli Mandel\n00:43:18\nI'm going to finish now reading \"Pictures in an Institution\". This is the most personal poem I've ever written, and I don't want to read anything after that, so I'm going to finish with this. \"Pictures in an Institution\". I think all I need to say about this is that it plays off notices against some personal experiences and I think that'll be plain enough.\n \nEli Mandel\n00:43:43\nReads \"Pictures in an Institution\" [from Trio: First Poems by Gael Turnbull, Phyllis Webb, and Eli Mandel].\n\nEli Mandel\n00:47:40\nThank you.\n\nAudience\n00:47:41\nApplause.\n\nUnknown\n00:47:51\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nUnknown\n00:47:53\nAmbient Sound [voices].\n\nGeorge Bowering\n00:48:22\nI'd like to help you welcome now, D.G. Jones.\n \nAudience\n00:48:27\nApplause.\n\nD.G. Jones\n00:48:60\nI'm going to do this because I'm thirsty. It's a little disturbing but I've had a suspicion that this was becoming true for some time, in the last few years, that pretty soon you won't be able to tell the Jew from the Wasp, anyway [audience laughter]. It's getting more disconcerting all the time how similar certain things are between me and Eli Mandel [audience laughter]. I just hope he's a very good person and lives a long life and has great success in the future [audience laughter]. The main thing I want to read tonight is a little bit like Eli's last poem [audience laughter]. But it takes a lot more time to get itself said, for good or ill, and I'd like to read a few, a couple shorter poems anyway, before starting that longer poem which takes up a fair amount of the time. I'll read the first book from the, I mean...[laughter], I'll read the first poem from the book which old oriental George Bowering told you about at the beginning of the program. This poem's called \"The Perishing Bird\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:51:12\nReads \"The Perishing Bird\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:53:16\nA poem called \"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:53:34\nReads \"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:54:41\nWell, this reads well. It starts with a Latin title, it's a kind of letter, actually written in reply to a letter to somebody who accused me of being rather complacent when ironically enough, I felt anything but that at that time. Accused me of being one of the people who didn't have any troubles in life, or not only me but somebody else too, when we had quite a few of our own that were not too dissimilar from those that the other person was talking about. It's about marriage. It's called, to avoid looking too obvious, \"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum''. It's a serious poem though, more or less.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:55:56\nReads \"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nEND\n01:01:57\n\n\ndg-jones_i006-11-04-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2]\n \nGeorge Bowering\n00:00:00\nI'd like to help you welcome now, D.G. Jones.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:00:13\nI'm going to do this because I'm thirsty. It's a little disturbing but I've had a suspicion that this was becoming true for some time, in the last few years, that pretty soon you won't be able to tell the Jew from the Wasp, anyway. It's getting more disconcerting all the time how similar certain things are between me and Eli Mandel. I just hope he's a very good person and lives a long life and has great success in the future. [Audience laughter]. The main thing I want to read tonight is a little bit like Eli's last poem. [laughter]. But it takes a lot more time to get itself said, for good or ill, and I'd like to read a few, a couple shorter poems anyway, before starting that longer poem which takes up a fair amount of the time. I'll read the first book, I mean...[laughter], I'll read the first poem from the book which old oriental George Bowering told you about at the beginning of the program. This poem's called \"The Perishing Bird\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:02:53\nReads \"The Perishing Bird\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:05:05\nA poem called \"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\" .\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:05:20\nReads \"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:06:35\nWell, this reads well. It starts with a Latin title, it's a kind of letter, actually written in reply to a letter to somebody who accused me of being rather complacent when ironically enough, I felt anything but that at that time. Accused me of being one of the people who didn't have any troubles in life, or not only me but somebody else too, when we had quite a few of our own that were not too dissimilar from those that the other person was talking about. It's about marriage. It's called, to avoid looking too obvious, \"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum''. It's a serious poem though, more or less.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:07:49\nReads “De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum” [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nUnknown\n00:13:55\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nD.G. Jones\n00:13:56\n...features of it, particularly carved doors or doors with glass panels carved, and a fountain, whoops. Wrong poem [audience laughter], same person [audience laughter]. The other one was written without any picture, this was written with a picture, \"On a Picture of Your House\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:14:49\nReads \"On a Picture of Your House\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:16:44\nThis poem is the long poem I referred to, it's a kind of confessional poem, it's only about, I suppose, ten years behind Robert Lowell [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q981448] and the other American poets who have been writing what the critics now call confessional poetry, which is about par, I suppose. This poem was more or less actually complete several years ago, but I got so many things into the poem I wasn't sure how I was going to get out. And I've dickied around with it and possibly added a few more things, and finally I kept what I had in the end anyway, which was simply a way of ducking out I suspect. Though I hope there's some kind of peculiar relationship to the end, and everything else. I haven't been able to find a title for it. \"Night Thoughts\", might do, but somebody used that. But it's something along this line: the situation, the scheme is to present a kind of series of reminiscences, mediations, memories which disintegrate and become a little more peculiar as time goes on. Then suddenly stops, breaks off with morning. And it's set more or less around my cottage that I had, in Ontario, which wasn't far from where I was born. This is written in sections but I won't bother reading all the numbers, I'll just pause and go on.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:19:00\nReads unnamed poem.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:41:22\nExcuse me, I'll read the last point, I was almost there, but I think I'll skip that part.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:41:30\nResumes reading unnamed poem.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:42:35\nExcuse me, I didn't feel I was reading that very well. Sorry, it is perhaps a little long. I'll finish quickly. I'd like to just read something a little different. I'll read two poems, one called \"Spring Flowers\", which will be the first.\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:43:22\nReads \"Spring Flowers\" [published later in Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth]\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:43:56\nI seem to be running out of steam. There's one here that's short enough I should be able to get all the way through it. It's called \"Under the Thunder\", and that's the first line.\n\nD.G. Jones\n00:44:15\nReads \"Under the Thunder\" [poem read is the title of a later publication, Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:44:21\nI'll try one more [audience laughter]. This was written for a number of people who got together--to form a society of a somewhat antiquated name, The League of Canadian Poets [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6509004], who met in Toronto [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q172] in October 1968. It's called \"To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968\" [audience laughter].\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:45:03\nReads \"To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968\".\n \nD.G. Jones\n00:46:40\nI think I'm sorry, I've run out of steam but...\n \nEND\n00:46:49\n[Cut off abruptly].\n"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"Year-Specific Information:\\n\\nIn 1969, Mandel was a professor at York University in Toronto, and he had published The Poetry of Irving Layton. He was also working on an anthology Five Modern Canadian Poets, published in 1970.\\n\\nIn 1969, D.G. Jones had founded Ellipse, and was teaching at the Universite de Sherbrooke.\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"Local Connections: \\n\\nThough no direct connections to Sir George Williams University are known, Eli Mandel’s work has been essential and influential in promoting the work of Canadian authors and poets, through his anthologizing and editing, his essay writing as well as his poetry.\\n\\nD.G. Jones has had a very influential role in Canadian and in specific Quebec poetry, as a leader in the translations of both English and French poetry. His criticism of Canadian literature places him with Margaret Atwood and Northrop Frye in shaping Canada’s literary canon and its literature. Jones was associated with poets such as Bowering, Dudek and Layton and F.R. Scott.\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"Original transcript, research, introduction and edits by Celyn Harding-Jones\\n\\nAdditional research and edits by Ali Barillaro\",\"type\":\"Cataloguer\"},{\"note\":\"2 reel-to-reel tapes>2 CDs>2 digital files\",\"type\":\"Preservation\"}]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/douglas-gordon-jones\",\"citation\":\"Blodgett, E.D. “Jones, Douglas Gordon”. The Canadian Encyclopedia. Historica-Dominion, 2008. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/contemporary-canadian-poem-anthology/oclc/476332314&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Bowering, George, ed. The Contemporary Canadian Poem Anthology. Toronto: Coach House Press, 1984. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/eli-mandel\",\"citation\":\"Boyd, Colin. “Mandel, Eli”. The Canadian Encyclopedia. Historica-Dominion, 2008.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-canadian-literature/oclc/605246871&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Davey, Frank. \\\"Mandel, Eli\\\". The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature. Eugene Benson and William Toye (eds). Oxford University Press 2001.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/fr-scott-une-vie-biographie/oclc/1132465721&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Djwa, Sandra. F.R. Scott: Une Vie, biographie. Montreal: Boreal, 2001. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/15-canadian-poets-x2/oclc/40224711&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Geddes, Gary. Fifteen Canadian Poets Times Two. Toronto: Oxford University Press, 1990.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/encyclopedia-of-post-colonial-literatures-in-english-vol2/oclc/1156824609&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Harrison, James. “Jones, Douglas Gordon (1929-)”. Routledge Encyclopedia of Post-Colonial  Literatures in English. Benson, Eugene; Conolly, L.W. (eds). London: Routledge, 1994. 2 vols. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/phrases-from-orpheus-by-jones/oclc/503359867&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Jones, D.G.. Phrases From Orpheus. Toronto: Oxford University Press, 1967.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/under-the-thunder-the-flowers-light-up-the-earth/oclc/3901520&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Jones, D.G.. Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth. Toronto: Coach House Press, 1977. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/idiot-joy/oclc/468767134?referer=di&ht=edition\",\"citation\":\"Mandel, Eli. An Idiot Joy. Edmonton: Hurtig, 1967.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/black-and-secret-man/oclc/247643578?referer=di&ht=edition\",\"citation\":\"Mandel, Eli. Black and Secret Man. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1964.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/crusoe-poems-selected-and-new/oclc/1419679&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Mandel, Eli. Crusoe: Poems Selected and New. Toronto: Anansi, 1973. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/trio/oclc/224515443&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Mandel, Eli., Turnbull, Gael., and Phyllis Webb. Trio: First Poems. Toronto: Contact Press, 1954\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/poetry-62/oclc/5110944&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Mandel, Eli and Jean-Guy Pilon. Poetry 62. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1961.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/encyclopedia-of-post-colonial-literatures-in-english-vol2/oclc/1156824609&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Stubbs, Andrew. “Mandel, Eli (1922-1992)”. Routledge Encyclopedia of Post-Colonial    Literatures in English. Benson, Eugene; Connolly, L.W. (eds). London: Routledge, 1994.      2 vols.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-canadian-literature/oclc/605246871&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Woodcock, George. \\\"Jones, D.G.\\\"  The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature. Eugene Benson and William Toye. Oxford University Press 2001. \"}]"],"_version_":1853670548880490496,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.477Z","digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0086_11_0034_back.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0086_11_0025_back.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Mandel and Jones Tape Box 2 - Back\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0086_11_0034_front.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0086_11_0025_front.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Mandel and Jones Tape Box 2 - 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Reel\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://files.spokenweb.ca/concordia/sgw/audio/all_mp3/dg-jones_i006-11-043-2.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"files.spokenweb.ca>concordia>sgw>audio>all_mp3\",\"filename\":\"dg-jones_i006-11-04-2.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"00:46:49\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"112.4 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"dg-jones_i006-11-04-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2]\\n \\nGeorge Bowering\\n00:00:00\\nI'd like to help you welcome now, D.G. Jones.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:00:13\\nI'm going to do this because I'm thirsty. It's a little disturbing but I've had a suspicion that this was becoming true for some time, in the last few years, that pretty soon you won't be able to tell the Jew from the Wasp, anyway. It's getting more disconcerting all the time how similar certain things are between me and Eli Mandel. I just hope he's a very good person and lives a long life and has great success in the future. [Audience laughter]. The main thing I want to read tonight is a little bit like Eli's last poem. [laughter]. But it takes a lot more time to get itself said, for good or ill, and I'd like to read a few, a couple shorter poems anyway, before starting that longer poem which takes up a fair amount of the time. I'll read the first book, I mean...[laughter], I'll read the first poem from the book which old oriental George Bowering told you about at the beginning of the program. This poem's called \\\"The Perishing Bird\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:02:53\\nReads \\\"The Perishing Bird\\\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:05:05\\nA poem called \\\"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\\\" .\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:05:20\\nReads \\\"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:06:35\\nWell, this reads well. It starts with a Latin title, it's a kind of letter, actually written in reply to a letter to somebody who accused me of being rather complacent when ironically enough, I felt anything but that at that time. Accused me of being one of the people who didn't have any troubles in life, or not only me but somebody else too, when we had quite a few of our own that were not too dissimilar from those that the other person was talking about. It's about marriage. It's called, to avoid looking too obvious, \\\"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum''. It's a serious poem though, more or less.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:07:49\\nReads “De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum” [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:13:55\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nD.G. Jones\\n00:13:56\\n...features of it, particularly carved doors or doors with glass panels carved, and a fountain, whoops. Wrong poem [audience laughter], same person [audience laughter]. The other one was written without any picture, this was written with a picture, \\\"On a Picture of Your House\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:14:49\\nReads \\\"On a Picture of Your House\\\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:16:44\\nThis poem is the long poem I referred to, it's a kind of confessional poem, it's only about, I suppose, ten years behind Robert Lowell [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q981448] and the other American poets who have been writing what the critics now call confessional poetry, which is about par, I suppose. This poem was more or less actually complete several years ago, but I got so many things into the poem I wasn't sure how I was going to get out. And I've dickied around with it and possibly added a few more things, and finally I kept what I had in the end anyway, which was simply a way of ducking out I suspect. Though I hope there's some kind of peculiar relationship to the end, and everything else. I haven't been able to find a title for it. \\\"Night Thoughts\\\", might do, but somebody used that. But it's something along this line: the situation, the scheme is to present a kind of series of reminiscences, mediations, memories which disintegrate and become a little more peculiar as time goes on. Then suddenly stops, breaks off with morning. And it's set more or less around my cottage that I had, in Ontario, which wasn't far from where I was born. This is written in sections but I won't bother reading all the numbers, I'll just pause and go on.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:19:00\\nReads unnamed poem.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:41:22\\nExcuse me, I'll read the last point, I was almost there, but I think I'll skip that part.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:41:30\\nResumes reading unnamed poem.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:42:35\\nExcuse me, I didn't feel I was reading that very well. Sorry, it is perhaps a little long. I'll finish quickly. I'd like to just read something a little different. I'll read two poems, one called \\\"Spring Flowers\\\", which will be the first.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:43:22\\nReads \\\"Spring Flowers\\\" [published later in Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth]\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:43:56\\nI seem to be running out of steam. There's one here that's short enough I should be able to get all the way through it. It's called \\\"Under the Thunder\\\", and that's the first line.\\n\\nD.G. Jones\\n00:44:15\\nReads \\\"Under the Thunder\\\" [poem read is the title of a later publication, Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:44:21\\nI'll try one more [audience laughter]. This was written for a number of people who got together--to form a society of a somewhat antiquated name, The League of Canadian Poets [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6509004], who met in Toronto [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q172] in October 1968. It's called \\\"To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968\\\" [audience laughter].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:45:03\\nReads \\\"To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:46:40\\nI think I'm sorry, I've run out of steam but...\\n \\nEND\\n00:46:49\\n[Cut off abruptly].\",\"notes\":\" D.G. Jones reads from Phrases from Orpheus (Oxford University Press, 1967), as well as a few that were published later in Under the Thunder the Flowers Light up the Earth (Coach House Press, 1977) and an unnamed long poem that may have been published in Poetry 62 (Ryerson Press 1961).\\n\\n00:00- George Bowering introduces D.G Jones [for full introduction, see I006-11-043.1 or I086-11-34]\\n00:13- D.G. Jones introduces “The Perishing Bird” [INDEX: Eli Mandel, George Bowering, Phrases from Orpheus; not on Howard Fink List of Poems]\\n02:53- Reads “The Perishing Bird”\\n05:20- Reads “Summer is a Poem by Ovid” [INDEX: not on Howard Fink List of Poems]\\n06:35- Introduces “De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum” [INDEX: not on Howard Fink List of Poems.]\\n13:56- [CUT] Introduces “On a Picture of Your House”\\n14:49- Reads “On a Picture of Your House”\\n16:44- Introduces untitled poem, first line “The night is mild and the young moon...” [INDEX: confessional poem, Robert Lowell, process of writing, Ontario]\\n19:00- Reads first line “The night is mild and the young moon...”\\n42:35- Interrupts poem, introduces “Spring Flowers”\\n43:22- Reads “Spring Flowers”\\n43:56- Introduces “Under the Thunder”\\n44:15- Reads “Under the Thunder”\\n44:21- Introduces “To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968” [INDEX: The     \\tLeague of Canadian Poets meeting in Toronto, October 1968]\\n45:49- Reads “To Certain Poets Who Met in Toronto, October 1968”\\n46:49- END OF RECORDING\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/douglas-gordon-d-g-jones-at-sgwu-1969-george-bowering/\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://files.spokenweb.ca/concordia/sgw/audio/all_mp3/eli_mandel_i086-11-034.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"files.spokenweb.ca>concordia>sgw>audio>all_mp3\",\"filename\":\"eli_mandel_i086-11-034.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"01:01:57\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"148.7 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"eli_mandel_i086-11-034.mp3 [File 1 of 2]\\n \\nGeorge Bowering\\n00:00:00\\n...start with the poesy, I've been asked to announce that on Friday, i.e., what's this the seventh? Two weeks from tonight, March the 21st at 9 o’clock. in Room 653, [Barnes (?)] willing, there will be a program, I guess within the auspices of the Fine Arts department, the Ira Cohen [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1097790], New York [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q60] film maker, and poet will be showing three of his films, as far as I know for the first time in Montreal [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q340]. That's two weeks tonight at 9 in 653. When I was asked to introduce Eli Mandel [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3050883], and D.G. Jones [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5203595], I said, 'that's ridiculous', Canadian poetry being the way it is, they already know each other. And after the moment of hilarity I was brought to my senses, and I began to think that it really did make a lot of sense that we do have Doug Jones and Eli Mandel reading on the same program. I can remember in 1961 when Poetry 62 came out, Canadian poetry being the way it is [audience laughter], Poetry 62 was edited by Jean-Guy Pilon [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3166089] I believe and Eli Mandel, being a bilingual book, and at the time the poem that struck me as the most interesting was the long poem by D.G. Jones, the most interesting in that anthology, and I therefore, felt kind of warm, without having them, to both of them to Doug's poem and Eli's great taste for putting it in the anthology. And then I thought that there was this kind of confluence going on and I began to see all kinds of other things happening too, for instance, they both had their first books published by Contact Press, that published the first books of most of the important Canadian poets, and they now have seen their careers sort of criss-cross one another in a kind of a funny way because they each have three books, except that Eli has three and a third, which is also kind of Canadian, and I thought it was kind of interesting because not only is there a kind of parallel going on, and they both in 1967, for instance, turned out very good books of poetry, but there's a kind of uh, they'll be kind of an interesting contrast I think in tonight's program because I've always considered that Doug Jones is sort of the best of the Ontario [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1904] Wasp poets [audience laughter], and Eli Mandel is the best of the Western Jewish poets and they both deal with essential problems that seem to expose their two opposing and therefore contrary and conjugal, you might almost say, attitudes towards the business of writing poems. So we're going to start off with Eli's reading, and then have something like a ten minute break, and then we'll have Doug Jones' reading. I should mention that of those two books, Eli's is called An Idiot Joy and it shared the Governor General's Award [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q283256] given in 1968, and published by Hurtig, Edmonton [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2096] publisher, who is very pleased to get the Governor General's Award, and Doug Jones' book is Phrases from Orpheus, published by Oxford Press [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q217595], two books that would be well worth investing both your heaven, forbid, money and your imagination upon. I'm probably not going to say anything before D.G. Jones comes to read, so I'm not expecting to come up here and spout for five or ten minutes before he reads and I'm not going to spout any longer before Eli reads. So I'd first like to introduce to you Mr. Eli Mandel.\\n\\nAudience\\n00:05:01\\nApplause. \\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:05:29\\nI think George [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1239280] might have carried the parallel of contrasts and comparisons a little further had he wanted to, or chosen to, or had he known about certain very intimate details about Doug's life and my life. But I don't propose to go into those myself right now either [audience laughter]. Instead, I'm going to read, primarily from An Idiot Joy, but also from Black and Secret Man, which was an earlier book and also from one or two manuscript poems that I've been working on recently. I want to start with a poem called \\\"Signatures\\\" and although I can say a lot about a number of poems that I've written, I'm not sure I can say much about this except that as will be obvious to you I think, the imagery is drawn from the Vietnam [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q881] conflict, though I don't know that the poem is necessarily about that. Can you hear me with this mic? Some people at the back are saying 'no'. Can you hear me now?\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:07:00\\nReads \\\"Signatures\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:09:27\\nThis poem is called \\\"Neither Here Nor There\\\".\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:09:33\\nReads \\\"Neither Here Nor There\\\" [published later in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:10:28\\nThis is a poem from Black and Secret Man and it's called \\\"The Direction is North Until the Pole\\\", and I suppose it's one of the few poems I've written that I would call a Canadian poem, that is to say it draws on a number of specific images from the Canadian landscape and therefore I have to annotate this poem. I have to tell you that the Fleming mentioned in the last line of the poem was once a Minister of Finance in the federal government, that just proves how transient political poems really are. I think all the rest of this should be clear, hockey is a game that's played in Canada [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:11:16\\nReads \\\"The Direction is North Until the Pole\\\" from Black and Secret Man.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:13:24\\nThis is one of my prophetic poems. I think I've written a lot of really prophetic poems. This poem is called \\\"Departure\\\" and it tells about leaving Edmonton. Everybody who has read the poem believes that I wrote it when I decided to leave Edmonton, either for the first time or the second time, I've left there twice, as a matter of fact, I didn't write it when I decided to leave in Edmonton, I wrote it when I arrived in Edmonton.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:13:53\\nReads \\\"Departure\\\" [from Black and Secret Man].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:14:37\\nA little poem about one of my perversions, this is about making love to pregnant women, I think, I'm not sure if there's a technical name for that but the perversion appears in the poem. The poem's called \\\"Cassandra\\\" and it's about a prophetess, Cassandra [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q170779], you'll remember was the woman that Agamemnon [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q128176]  brought home with him to his wife, Clytemnestra [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q131157], and this, so angered Clytemnestra, aside from the fact that Agamemnon had killed one of their daughters, that she killed Agamemnon, but Cassandra was a Prophetess, like Prophetesses, was given the power to tell the truth and was never believed. Some of the imagery in this poem is taken from the story of Cassandra, and the rest from my perversions.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:15:39\\nReads \\\"Cassandra\\\" [from Black and Secret Man].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:17:00\\nReads \\\"The Madness of our Polity\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:17:46\\n\\\"Whence Cometh Our Help?\\\", the title is taken from the Psalms [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q41064], and there are a number of images of the Psalms, in the poem. Or images from the Psalms.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:18:04\\nReads \\\"Whence Cometh Our Help?\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:19:03\\nThis poem is called \\\"Manner of Suicide\\\", and it's the closest thing I've come to writing a found poem, in that all the material in the poem, the words are taken from two sources, except for the first line. One is Karl Menninger's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3080926] Man Against Himself and the other, the Jewish Daily Prayer Book. There are twenty-six ways listed here of committing suicide, they're all ways that Menninger lists and documents, and he lists them in the order in which I give them here, and this list, which I give, is then followed by some comments he makes about those ways of committing suicide and a passage from the prayer book.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:20:11\\nReads \\\"Manner of Suicide\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:23:24\\nIn An Idiot Joy I wrote a number of poems which were, which used two primary images, the image of the moon and the image of the sea, and these are love poems. I suppose the interesting thing in them to me, aside from the personal sense that I feel about them, is that with each of the poems, whether it's with the image of the moon or the image of the sea, or both, I keep trying different technical things in the poetry, and so far as I'm concerned, I've done some more interesting technical things in this than anywhere else, but primarily, the poems talk about the moon and the sea, and seabirds and women and a woman.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:24:30\\nReads \\\"Woman in the Moon\\\" from An Idiot Joy.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:26:12\\nReads \\\"The Explanations of the Moon” [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:27:32\\nThis is one of the sea poems, in the sequence, called \\\"Listen, the Sea\\\", and the title comes from King Lear [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q181598], though actually, I had become aware of it of course when I knew that Keats [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q82083] had written a sonnet using this, but the technique is neither Shakespearean nor Keatsean, nothing of the kind.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:28:00\\nReads \\\"Listen, the Sea\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:29:01\\nAnd \\\"Marina\\\", who is a daughter of the sea.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:29:09\\nReads \\\"Marina\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:30:46\\nWell something quite different. I think I should dedicate this to George Bowering, because I wrote the poem after I had been…\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:30:56\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nEli Mandel\\n00:30:57\\nAnd I would have to apologize for this, but the last thing in the world that I wanted to do was apologize, I'd prefer anything but that, I mean this is pretty simple-minded simplistic psychology, of the worst order I suppose, I just--I'm writing a poem about how stupid I felt at that particular moment.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:31:17\\nReads \\\"The Apology\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:34:34\\nThis is the poem I like to think of as the one that one would put in a time capsule, it's called \\\"Letter to be Opened Later\\\" and presumably each one of us wants to immortalize oneself, and imagine, you know, two thousand years later the time capsule being opened and then they can read your letter. This is my letter, to be opened later.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:35:12\\nReads \\\"Letter to be Opened Later\\\" [published later in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New ].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:36:09\\nI'm going to read a lyric, it's a very short poem, but I'd like to read this one anyhow. It's called \\\"To My Children\\\" and it's based upon both an odd and rather terrifying coincidence in my life and a curious Jewish tradition. The Jewish tradition is that you name a child after the nearest dead relative, the relative who has died most recently and who is closest to one, and it so happened that my mother died, my daughter was born, my father died and my son was born. And I wrote this poem about the naming of the children. It's called \\\"To My Children\\\".\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:37:08\\nReads \\\"To My Children\\\" [from Black and Secret Man].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:38:00\\nNow I'm going to finish this reading with two poems, one is called \\\"The Meaning of the I Ching\\\" and the other \\\"Cosmos: the Giant Rose\\\"--three poems, I'm sorry. I'm going to read \\\"Pictures in an Institution\\\" as well. \\\"The Meaning of the I Ching\\\", the I Ching [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q181937] as you probably know is a book of divination, it's the oldest book of divination known, and when I first heard about it, I looked at the book before I opened it and I wondered about the very simple notion of a book that old telling my future. How could I be contained in this ancient book? And I wrote this poem. Now it seems to me that there is something remarkable here, it's one claim I will make for the poem, at least, in the poem, is the first time I used the phrase \\\"earth upon earth\\\" and the very first hexagram that I cast when I opened the book. The book tells fortunes with what are called hexagrams and hexagrams are given various names, the very first one that I cast was the hexagram \\\"earth upon earth\\\" and that's simply something that happened whether it means that the poem is prophetic or magical, I don't know.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:39:36\\nReads \\\"The Meaning of the I Ching\\\" [from An Idiot Joy].\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:43:18\\nI'm going to finish now reading \\\"Pictures in an Institution\\\". This is the most personal poem I've ever written, and I don't want to read anything after that, so I'm going to finish with this. \\\"Pictures in an Institution\\\". I think all I need to say about this is that it plays off notices against some personal experiences and I think that'll be plain enough.\\n \\nEli Mandel\\n00:43:43\\nReads \\\"Pictures in an Institution\\\" [from Trio: First Poems by Gael Turnbull, Phyllis Webb, and Eli Mandel].\\n\\nEli Mandel\\n00:47:40\\nThank you.\\n\\nAudience\\n00:47:41\\nApplause.\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:47:51\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:47:53\\nAmbient Sound [voices].\\n\\nGeorge Bowering\\n00:48:22\\nI'd like to help you welcome now, D.G. Jones.\\n \\nAudience\\n00:48:27\\nApplause.\\n\\nD.G. Jones\\n00:48:60\\nI'm going to do this because I'm thirsty. It's a little disturbing but I've had a suspicion that this was becoming true for some time, in the last few years, that pretty soon you won't be able to tell the Jew from the Wasp, anyway [audience laughter]. It's getting more disconcerting all the time how similar certain things are between me and Eli Mandel [audience laughter]. I just hope he's a very good person and lives a long life and has great success in the future [audience laughter]. The main thing I want to read tonight is a little bit like Eli's last poem [audience laughter]. But it takes a lot more time to get itself said, for good or ill, and I'd like to read a few, a couple shorter poems anyway, before starting that longer poem which takes up a fair amount of the time. I'll read the first book from the, I mean...[laughter], I'll read the first poem from the book which old oriental George Bowering told you about at the beginning of the program. This poem's called \\\"The Perishing Bird\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:51:12\\nReads \\\"The Perishing Bird\\\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:53:16\\nA poem called \\\"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\\\".\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:53:34\\nReads \\\"Summer is a Poem by Ovid\\\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:54:41\\nWell, this reads well. It starts with a Latin title, it's a kind of letter, actually written in reply to a letter to somebody who accused me of being rather complacent when ironically enough, I felt anything but that at that time. Accused me of being one of the people who didn't have any troubles in life, or not only me but somebody else too, when we had quite a few of our own that were not too dissimilar from those that the other person was talking about. It's about marriage. It's called, to avoid looking too obvious, \\\"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum''. It's a serious poem though, more or less.\\n \\nD.G. Jones\\n00:55:56\\nReads \\\"De Profundis Conjugii Vox et Responsum\\\" [from Phrases from Orpheus].\\n \\nEND\\n01:01:57\\n\",\"notes\":\"Eli Mandel reads from An Idiot Joy (Hurtig, 1967), Black and Secret Man (1964), Trio:  First Poems (Contact Press, 1954), as well as poems later published in Crusoe: Poems Selected and New (Anansi, 1973).\\n\\n00:00- George Bowering introduces Eli Mandel and D.G. Jones [INDEX: announces other event: Ira Cohen film showing. Poetry 62 ed. by Eli Mandel and Jean-Guy Pilon: contains long poem by D.G. Jones, Contact Press, D.G. Jones- “Ontario Wasp Poet”/ Eli Mandel-“Western Jewish Poet”, Eli Mandel: An Idiot Joy published by Hurtig press, won Governor General Award, Eli Mandel: Black and Secret Man, D.G. Jones: Phrases from Orpheus Oxford Press]\\n05:08- Eli Mandel introduces “Signatures”\\n07:00- Reads “Signatures”\\n09:27- Reads “Neither Here Nor There”\\n10:28- Introduces “The Direction is North Until the Pole” [INDEX: Canadian Landscapes, Fleming- Minister of Finance of Federal Government, Political poems]\\n11:16- Reads “The Direction is North Until the Pole”\\n13:24- Introduces “Departure” [INDEX: leaving Edmonton]\\n13:53- Reads “Departure”\\n14:37- Introduces “Cassandra” [INDEX:  Cassandra, Prophetess, Clytemnestra, Agamemnon]\\n15:39- Reads “Cassandra”\\n17:00- Reads “The Madness of our Polity”\\n17:46- Introduces “Whence Cometh Our Help” [INDEX: psalms]\\n18:04- Reads “Whence Cometh Our Help”\\n19:03- Introduces “Manner of Suicide” [INDEX:  Karl Mennenger’s Man Against Himself,   Jewish Daily Prayer Book, Found Poem]\\n20:11- Reads “Manner of Suicide”\\n23:24- Introduces “Woman in the Moon” [INDEX: image: moon and sea]\\n24:30- Reads “Woman in the Moon”\\n26:12- Reads “The Explanations of the Moon”\\n27:32- Introduces “Listen, the Sea” [INDEX: King Lear, Keats Sonnet]\\n28:00- Reads “Listen, the Sea”\\n29:01- Reads “Marina”\\n30:46- Introduces “The Apology” [INDEX: George Bowering]\\n31:17- Reads “The Apology”\\n34:34- Introduces “Letter to be Opened Later” [INDEX: time capsule]\\n35:12- Reads “Letter to be Opened Later”\\n36:09- Introduces “To My Children” [INDEX: lyric poetry, Jewish naming tradition]\\n37:08- Reads “To My Children”\\n38:00- Introduces “The Meaning of the I Ching” [INDEX: hexagram ‘earth upon earth’]\\n39:36- Reads “The Meaning of the I Ching”\\n43:18- Introduces “Pictures in an Institution”\\n43:43- Reads “Pictures in an Institution”\\n47:47- George Bowering introduces D.G. Jones\\n48:35- D.G. Jones introduces “The Perishing Bird”\\n51:12- Reads “The Perishing Bird”\\n53:16- Reads “Summer is a Poem by Auden”\\n54:41- Introduces “De Profundis Con Yugie Voxette Responsem”\\n55:56- Reads “De Profundis Con Yugie Voxette Responsem”\\n01:01:57.14- END OF RECORDING\\n\\nFrom the Howard Fink list of Poems:\\n7/2/69\\none 5” reel, 3 3/4 one track, mono, 1/2 hour\\nreadings are from Mandel’s books An Idiot Joy and Black and Secret Man\\n\\n1. “Signature”\\n2. “Neither Here Nor There”\\n3. “The Direction is North Until the Pole”\\n4. “Departure”\\n5. “Cassandra”\\n6. first line “Being savages, we learn”\\n7. “Whence Cometh Our Help”\\n8. “Manner of Suicide”\\n9. “Woman on the Moon”\\n10. “The Explanation of the Moon”\\n11. “Listen, the Sea”\\n12. “Marina”\\n*note: list of poems not complete.\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/eli-mandel-at-sgwu-1969-d-g-jones-george-bowering/\"}]"],"score":5.636241},{"id":"1278","cataloger_name":["Masoumeh,Zaare"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"source_collection_label":["SGWU Reading Series-Concordia University Department of English fonds"],"collection_contributing_unit":["Records Management and Archives"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":[""],"collection_source_collection_description":["The fonds consists of some administrative records of the SGWU Department of English and the Concordia Department of English between 1971 and 2000. It also consists of some SGWU Department of English records related to student academic activities in the 1940s and to public readings and lectures, and a few interviews, produced between 1966 and 1972. The fonds mainly includes minutes of departmental meetings and some course timetables. It also includes some student papers in bound volumes and 63 sound recordings (80 audio reels) mainly composed of poetry readings (see the Concordia SpokenWeb project which uses this material) but also a few lectures given at SGWU. There are also loose typed sheets describing some of the SGWU poetry readings."],"collection_source_collection_id":["I086"],"persistent_url":["http://archives.concordia.ca/I086"],"item_title":["Robert Duncan at Sir George Williams University, The Poetry Series, 19 April 1969"],"item_title_source":["Cataloguer"],"item_title_note":["\"ROBERT DUNCAN -1 Recorded Spring 1970 3.75 ips, 1/2 track on 1 mil. tape ONE OF TWO TAPES\" written on sticker on the back of the tape's box. \"ROBERT DUNCAN -1 I006/SR96.1\" written on sticker on the spine of the tape's box. I006-11-096.1 written on sticker on the reel.\n\n\"ROBERT DUNCAN -2 Recorded, Spring, 1970 3.75 ips, 1/2 track on 1 mil. tape THE SECOND OF TWO TAPES\" written on sticker on the back of the tape's box. \"ROBERT DUNCAN -2 I006/SR96.2\" written on sticker on the spine of the tape's box."],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Documentary recording"],"item_series_title":["The Poetry Series"],"item_subseries_title":["Poetry 3"],"item_identifiers":["[I006-11-096.1 , I006-11-096.2]"],"creator_names":["Duncan, Robert"],"creator_names_search":["Duncan, Robert"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\" http://viaf.org/viaf/105142281\",\"name\":\"Duncan, Robert\",\"dates\":\"1919-1988\",\"notes\":\"American poet Robert Duncan was born on January 7, 1919 in Oakland, California. At birth, he was given his father’s name: Edward Howard Duncan. In 1920 and after his mother’s death shortly after childbirth, Duncan was adopted into another family and re-named. But he adopted the name Robert Duncan when he started publishing his early poems. These poems were published in magazines during his studies at University of California at Berkeley between 1936-1938. He edited the Experimental Review the year following. Duncan then moved to New York where he joined a group of writers which included Anais Nin, George Barker, Henry Miller, and Kenneth Patchen. The poems that he wrote in this period were collected in 1966 for The Years as Catches: First Poems 1939-1946 (Oyez Press) and in 1968 for The First Decade: Selected Poems 1940-1950 (Fulcrum Press). From 1946 to 1950, Duncan moved to San Francisco, where he met and was influenced by poet Jack Spicer. His first collection of published poems was Heavenly and Earthly City (Bern Porter Press, 1947), followed by Poems 1948-49 (Berkeley Miscellany Editions, 1949). In 1948 he enrolled in classes in Medieval and Renaissance Civilization, taught by Ernst Kantorowicz, after which he published Medieval Scenes (Centaur Press) in 1950. The next year he met and began a lifelong relationship with the painter Jess Collins, and by 1955 he published Caesar’s Gate Poems 1949-1950 with Collages by Jess (Divers Press), a collection of poems from the early 50’s. Fragments of a Disordered Devotion was published privately in 1952, only to be re-printed by Toronto’s Island Press in 1966. During this time he also was deeply influenced by the poems of Charles Olson, Robert Creeley and Denise Levertov. Duncan taught at the Black Mountain College in 1956, and published Derivations (1968), poems collected from 1950 to 1956. After spending a year in Mallorca, his play Medea at Kolchis: The Maiden Head was performed at Black Mountain College. Duncan then moved back to San Francisco as the assistant director of the Poetry Center at San Francisco State University.  His most popular collection of poems, The Opening of the Field (Grove Press) was published in 1960, and was re-printed in London by Jonathan Cape in 1969 and in New York by New Directions in 1973. He was associated with the Creative Writing Workshop at the University of British Columbia in 1963, and he held a Guggenheim Fellowship until 1964. Duncan became one of the most vocal poets writing against the Vietnam war, and some of his anti-war poetry was published in pamphlets, collected later in Ground Work: Before the War printed privately in 1971. His later collections include, but are not limited to Roots and Branches, (Scribners, 1964, reprinted by New Directions, 1968, and Johnathan Cape, 1970), Bending the Bow (New Directions, 1968), his last collection of poetry, Ground Work II: In the Dark (New Directions, 1987), and several books of essays including Fictive Certainties (New Directions, 1985). He was the recipient of National Endowment of the Arts grants, the National Poetry Award as well as other honours. Robert Duncan died in 1988, and several of his collections of poetry were published posthumously.\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Author\",\"Performer\"]}]"],"contributors_names":["Bowering, George"],"contributors_names_search":["Bowering, George"],"contributors":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/34469976\",\"name\":\"Bowering, George\",\"dates\":\" 1935-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Series organizer\",\"Presenter\"]}]"],"Presenter_name":["Bowering, George"],"Series_organizer_name":["Bowering, George"],"Performance_Date":[1969],"material_description":["[{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"Scotch\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"3 3/4 ips\",\"sound_quality\":\"Good\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"\",\"track_configuration\":\"Half-track\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"},{\"side\":\"\",\"image\":\"\",\"other\":\"Box is Scotch brand, tape is BASF\",\"extent\":\"1/4 inch\",\"AV_types\":\"Audio\",\"tape_brand\":\"BASF\",\"generations\":\"\",\"Conservation\":\"\",\"equalization\":\"\",\"playback_mode\":\"Mono\",\"playing_speed\":\"3 3/4 ips\",\"sound_quality\":\"Good\",\"recording_type\":\"Analogue\",\"storage_capacity\":\"\",\"physical_condition\":\"\",\"track_configuration\":\"Half-track\",\"material_designation\":\"Reel to Reel\",\"physical_composition\":\"Magnetic Tape\",\"accompanying_material\":\"\",\"other_physical_description\":\"\"}]"],"material_designations":["Reel to Reel","Reel to Reel"],"physical_compositions":["Magnetic Tape","Magnetic Tape"],"recording_type":["Analogue","Analogue"],"AV_type":["Audio","Audio"],"playback_mode":["Mono","Mono"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"1969 4 19\",\"type\":\"Performance Date\",\"notes\":\"Please note that the Howard Fink list states the reading took place in “Spring 1970”, while the interview states another (perhaps separate) reading took place on April 19, 1969.\",\"source\":\"Previous researcher\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22080570\",\"venue\":\"Hall Building\",\"notes\":\"Exact venue location unknown\",\"address\":\"1455, Boul de Maisonneuve Ouest, Montreal, Quebec, Canada\",\"latitude\":\" 45.4972758\",\"longitude\":\" -73.57893043\"}]"],"Address":["1455, Boul de Maisonneuve Ouest, Montreal, Quebec, Canada"],"Venue":["Hall Building"],"City":["Montreal, Quebec"],"content_notes":["Robert Duncan reads from The Opening of the Field (Grove Press, 1960), Roots and Branches (New Directions, 1964), and Bending the Bow (New Directions, 1968)."],"contents":["robert_duncan_i006-11-096-1.mp3 [File 1 of 2] \n \nGeorge Bowering\n00:00:00\n...say anything about Robert Duncan's credentials, so I'll make this as brief as possible. M.L. Rosenthal [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6723336] said, a little while ago in the Reporter that Duncan [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q57421163] was the best of the poets in the experimental tradition and Warren Tolman says he's the best poet writing in the English Language, and I'd probably go further than that. And it's the reading we've been waiting for, most of us, all year, so I'd like to give him as much time as there possibly is. Robert Duncan.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:00:44\nIn the early 50's, I belonged to a, not a group, because as a matter of fact we were scattered, some in Europe and some in America and didn't know each other, but we were all reacting to a, we all had response of a feeling of poetic responsibility and also a poetic mission, arising out of our response to the publication of Ezra Pound's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q163366] \"Pisan Cantos\" [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2701465] and the publication that came year after year of the parts of William Carlos Williams's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q178106] \"Paterson\" [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7017378] but in the same period in magazines, some of the poetry of the later William Carlos Williams was appearing. And it does interest me, although the command of the Modernists had been to write in a natural speech, that in response to features that were appearing in Williams more than Pound, because Pound's lines are all syntactic utterances, but in Williams there's a kind of enjambment and there was a juncture appearing at the end of lines. And we, we took that juncture over and imposed it upon the language, but even in imposing it, found that we had arrived at something that's quite common indeed in our English speech, the stutter is at one end of it, but it is one of the forms we have when we are emotionally excited and things are broken up into phrases and words become almost painful and impossible to say, and this encounter we explored for some time. Later, I'm going to be reading, in passages, which will bring into question radically something related to his. My poetry developed along lines that I began to see as allied to the collage, things that were appearing in American painting, that is whole elements and bits would be taken from anywhere, and very early, at the time, as a matter of fact that I was writing The Opening of the Field, I viewed myself as a kind of jackdaw of poetry and gave up entirely worrying about if I had any originality or had a voice of my own. I was much more attracted picking up things and building them into something, so I was a weaver, I felt in some ways, almost before I was a speaker, and I was a weaver of voices and did not care, or- I decided well, I happen to be the one who is doing this, so certainly that's one thing that I don't have to have an effort about. There's nothing else that's going to be moving out from here. In passages, you'll find a new feature about that collage, but it's already contained in the thing I was suggesting that we took over- the juncture, Creeley [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q918620] for instance built a whole personal style from that juncture and by making its articulation radical, and forcing it into a depth of an emotional statement, and of course of an intellectual statement, because the whole framework of thought changes. Very striking to us in the very beginning was that form was the content, not, it was very hard to determine it, you could say that it even determined content, there was no cause to effect relationship for us, between form and content. Structure determined the nature of what was to thought, like the structure of a body is to what we are, and we didn't think of them as divided, so we were incarnationists in that sense. I feel very strongly that you'll find that repeatedly a theme of my poetry the incarnation of Christ [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q302], the incarnation of spirit and the body, that spirit, that the divine world is manifest and incarnate, and that in its- led us back to the poem as the incarnation and place in which- the spirit doesn't enter poetry, incarnate, it exists. But it was also a collage and you will hear Greek and French entering this world of a collage, and it will be as reformed as the American language is when it enters my collage. And reformed to American contours, the contours of French, and the contours of Greek disappear, forced back into an American stress system, which I find analogous. The French poets were extremely disturbed when Stravinsky set them, she could not bear to hear [Persephone (?)] and because they all came out, French all came out to be Russian in its entire tonation and the French not very happy when the French language turns up in an intonation. I'm thinking of the Parisian, but no Frenchman's very happy about the French language turning up, turning out to be American or Russian. Now my poetry doesn't turn out to be exactly American either, it turns out to be strictly forced back to conform to my poetic patterns, and Greek is not intoned but is forced into a stress pattern. However, with Greek I'm in for free because there's no man who can say what you do with it anyway. In America, we have one system, in Germany, they have another system, and in England, they have, still, a third system of what to do with vowels and what to do with the whole thing. And there's a controversy about whether you do have pitch or whether you do have stress and that arises from the fact that the Hellenistic Greeks [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q428995] already couldn't figure out exactly what you did with those Greek choruses, and they had to put those marks in to instruct their readers what to do, and we don't know what those marks meant for sure [audience laughter]. But they certainly didn't know what it had been like 500 years before. They did poorer, I take it, than the poorest, and that would include me, informed of us do with Middle English [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36395], and I guess we're nearer to it than they were. Okay, well, we'll just start out and I want to take a path, I'm going to take a path through beginning with a small group of poems from The Opening of the Field.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:07:46\nReads \"The Law I Love is Major Mover” from The Opening of the Field.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:10:44\nWhen I was about 30, a great Medieval Historian was teaching at the University of California [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q184478], where I made my living teaching, typing thesis and term papers when I was really hard out of luck and the rumour was very thick indeed that something extraordinary had happened, I think, and my impression is that Universities kill off scholars today much faster than they- they certainly don't kill off poets, they give them very handsome fees to come for a week or so, but they certainly kill off scholars, but the existence- perhaps only the World War with its refugee professors from Europe brought this kind of scholarship onto the scene at the University of California and I returned to school to take up Medieval Studies. One of the, clearly, in my work I, the one course, and I studied with that man until he left for the Princeton Institute of Advanced Learning, studied for him--with him for two and a half years, the course that most changed my poetry was a course on Medieval law, and the growth of constitutional law, because the very basis of poetry I think is a- of art, is the discovery of laws, the laws that finally we can trace through from those Medieval concepts of law and constant meditations upon law so I'm going to read a couple of more poems of our- in which this concept of law moves. This is \"Structure of Rime XIII\" and it's part of an open construct that is a construct that has nothing in its concept, does not belong to a world of cause or effect. It has a chronology, but its chronology is like our chronological time, that is seen by contemporary physics as an anomaly within a time--within a physical time that cannot possibly have the character of a chronological sequence. The best they can explain is that we must inhabit a thread that is suspended in actual time, because actual physical time cannot really be one directional, and we experience one directional time because we are really caught in some isolated thread, in the medium of time. So in \"Structure of Rime\" I conceive of myself not in a chronology, although I experience it, being human as such, but as entering such a domain in which real law exists and real time exists, and the real form to which the poem refers and from which it derives its form. The real form has no beginning or end, and is much faster, is universal, so the--in writing the poem I do not create a form, but participate in a form which is of the nature that we believe the physical world to be and I am much for a convert of Whitehead's process and reality in which we believe the spiritual world to be. And that's where \"The Structure of Rime\" takes place. When I say 'thirteen',  that's of course, in my own sequence then and I conceive of that sequence as actually existing in a part of the mosaic that does not have the character of sequence.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:14:29\nReads \"Structure of Rime XIII\" from The Opening of the Field. \n \nRobert Duncan\n00:16:59\nSome time shortly after The Opening of the Field was published, I was invited up to Portland [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6106] by a lawyer and his wife to talk to a small group and I learned in correspondence that he had been attracted to my poetry because of the concepts of law as they move through poems, and so I wrote, for them, the poem called \"The Law\", a series and variation.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:17:35\nReads \"The Law\" [from Roots and Branches].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:23:27\nWhen Adams [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11806] said, “the which”, meaning, he said, \"Democracy, the which requires the continual exercise of virtue beyond the reach of human infirmity, even in its best estate\" he was writing to Jefferson and talking about something that was absolutely necessary, he did not mean that we could escape from what required what was impossible. We had to live in the impossible, which is where I found myself entirely in concord with certainly a poet understands what it is to live in the impossible. He speaks in the first place in a voice which is impossible for himself to speak in, and before which he must always be a flunk out and in some sense, a political- a poetical failure in relation to what everywhere's own poetics is to point out what is necessary. Let me in relation to the law again, read the opening of a poem that I will be later be reading entire, but I want to bring it in context with these poems and the law, and close it with a John Adams that I discovered only a passage of John Adams that I discovered for myself, only about what, it's two or three years ago, two years ago. \"Reading on Myth\", this was from a book called I think it's called 18th Century Against the Gods, or confronts--The 18th Century Confronts the Gods and the chapter on John Adams's mythology was a fascinating chapter, and this passage of the poem is built up entirely with no interpolations at all of--it's built up to the place where I cease to read it, with no interpolations at all of passages of the marginalia that John Adams writes in an Encyclopedia of Mythology.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:25:32\nReads [\"John Adams’s Marginalia...\"].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:26:53\nMove back to another early poem in The Opening of the Field that was formative to, throughout my work and the last I guess it must be, each one of these is about three, this is the last ten years. The Field began in 1956, so it must be the last 14 years. And this poem is written in 1956. Take my coat off. In articulating the line, we were opening up- Pound had very early said [unintelligible] by the musical phrase and as I said, since his phrases were identical with syntactic utterances, with sentence utterances, the phrase is- the phrase is simpler than the phrases we use, where often they are enjambed, where often they disturb the meaning of the sentence and suspend elements so that they operate in various parts we did not want what was called an ambiguity by Mr. [Adams (?)], we wanted a multi-phasic area of meanings which is something very different. We wanted all parts to operate within all other parts. And I think this is a crucial difference from what let's say fascinated the metaphysicals of the post-Eliot [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q37767] period in their idea of ambiguities. We wanted one meaning operating within another meaning and they wanted one meaning secretly giving another meaning, I may have such things too, but I mean it's a very different feeling for us. Certainly they did not have to come to articulate as we did, and with these poems, when I get to, as you'll see in passages, when I get into rhythmic articulations where only my body is intelligent enough to keep them, so I have to throw them back into my hands and to my body, a dance can carry them and a dance is really in a sense, the poem in which I moved straight forward and realized how un-literary this was and not exactly song either, and that this dance centre was going to be for whole sections of poems. So, there's a key poem.\n\nRobert Duncan\n00:29:27\nReads \"The Dance\" [from The Opening of the Field].\n\nUnknown\n00:31:32\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \n\nRobert Duncan\n00:31:33\nResumes reading \"The Dance\" [from The Opening of the Field].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:32:09.\nSomeone said this evening I probably wouldn't read The Pindar poems, I will. Oh let me sing a song for you, songs, I have a couple of songs that are in books. Songs for me are not that quaint form that, a few of them are like the night nurse's songs, the song the night nurse sang. But a song of the old order and some of the other songs are actual songs, that means when I was writing them, a tune came. And they had only one voice to be in, mine, and we could even say unhappily, but there they were. And startled I was when, this is I think, one of the first songs that came that really belonged in a book of poetry. I had early had some songs in Faust Foutu in a sort of a long play that would never get performed in my mind so I was able to whatever I wanted to in it, and- which is a great kind of play to write, because you don't have to worry about anyone else solving any problems, you can name it, they can be on the moon, or whatever, have no stage dimension problems, but also of course I had no song dimension problems but when I wrote this song, \"Gee, I know I'm going to have to get up and sing it\", well of course now you'll get away with it because how rare you'd hear a poet's voice, unless a poet's already like your happy rock-n-roll singer, which I ain't as you will hear. My idea of song is exceedingly primitive indeed, my impression is very, I think you will hear it in this song, it comes from a brief period in which to much the horror of my theosophical parents, but because we were living in a small town and all your friends went to a Sunday School, I went for several years to a Methodist Sunday school and somebody along the line gave me the hint that hymns would come out much better if I just moved my mouth and didn't join in, happily, the lovely music that was going on and so of course I always wanted to write a hymn and there's something in the Methodist hymnal for sure in the song I'm going to sing. \"A Song of the Old Order\". It's not strictly Methodist in theology, but I meant that it's something of the Methodist hymn. However, I will sing also, by following another song that is certainly Calvinist [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q101849], it's a Halloween song, and like only the scotch can possibly dig out of there- the Calvinist counter hymnal.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:34:52\nSings \"A Song of the Old Order\" [from The Opening of the Field].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:38:05\nThat was considerably higher than I've ever tried to do it before. [Audience laughter]. But, like a poem, when you're writing it, when you're in it, you're in for it. You can't re-model it to something you think you might get through with. So I will now do the Pindar poem. That somewhat determines what long poem we're going to do. And since this is the first time I've read here in Montreal, some other places I read, I try and give them new stuff, but I take it outside of some tapes that might be available, you haven't really heard these poems. And this will be the last one from The Opening of the Field. I'll pick up a couple from Roots and Branches and then I will be reading from the current, the Bending the Bow and then after the break I'll read some of the new poems that I've written since Bending the Bow. [Take off Biney's Law (?).] No, this is not the beginning of a Ginsberg [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6711] round [laughter.] \"Beginning with a Line by Pindar\", I am ending up with an exhibition by Ginsberg, [laughter.] We've gotten so [unintelligible] in San Francisco [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62] since all barriers of all kinds were down you really couldn't compete with the show, so you've got, I mean what to do. Common, ordinary people are just left out, you've got to be somebody extraordinary now to [audience laughter], and poetry has to be my extraordinary thing. Believe me, the rest of me is just me. \"A Poem Beginning with a Line by Pindar\".\n\nRobert Duncan\n00:40:17\nReads \"A Poem Beginning with a Line by Pindar\" [from The Opening of the Field].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:54:15\nI'll read two poems from--that were requested from Roots and Branches.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:54:30\nReads [\"Risk”] from Roots and Branches.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:59:22\nThe other poem I will read from Roots and Branches is \"The Continent\". My poetic thought continuously arises from the ground of my happy and, believe me, wildly misunderstanding readings of contemporary science. And the one real poetic source I have is not a literary magazine but Scientific American [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q39379] which I avidly read. So I'm more likely to be studying language than I am to be studying poems and more likely to be studying the world, than I am to be- well, I can't say that, language and the world get even treatment. The poem \"The Continent\" came from the re-assertion that has come in recent years of evidence which has rebuilt the picture of the continental drift. And I was happy at the coordinates to find that Charles Olson [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q922978], who also ransacks the same magazine, but does not have the same misunderstandings of the magazine by any means, we have quite a, we sometimes come to [loggerheads (?) ] in our very positively taken misunderstandings of what is. He also had built sections of “Maximus [Poems]” on the continental drift. I love puns of course right away, and so does he, and if you get my drift in poetry, you will see something of what is revealed when we begin to get the drift of those continents and the fittingness of poetry is of course the logic whereby we identify that the continents originally fitted together and identified the sequence of things that happened. They do fit together, but they must have- I mean, the universe- the Neo-plateness, [unintelligible], well no, it isn't a neo-plate, well, it's a near neo-plate, and it's [unintelligible] Judas [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q81018] refers to the masterpiece which is the Universe, that's the only masterpiece and the rest of us compose masterpieces because we are children of the universe, although we may not recognize that that's what we are doing. Some of us don't have entire respect for what we belong to. \"The Continent\".\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:01:49\nReads \"The Continent\" from Roots and Branches.\n \nUnknown\n01:03:39\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nRobert Duncan\n01:03:40\nResumes reading \"The Continent\" from Roots and Branches.\n\nRobert Duncan\n01:06:16\n[Unintelligible] break in tone I'll sing that song I mentioned, the second one that comes from a Calvinist anti-hymnal. It's a song from my Halloween masque. And it's “A Country Wife’s Song”, the country husband is lying in bed, snoring away and the wife rises silently, puts a stick in the bed and a stone on the pillow and sings the following song.\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:07:50\nPerforms “A Country Wife’s Song” [from Roots and Branches].\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:09:38\nWe seem to be close to 10:30 so I'm going to just--I won't read--well, I'd like to read one passage before the intermission and I would also like to read the poem \"Epilogos\", then we'll have a break, I would suggest about 10 minutes and I will then read in the second part, I will be reading from \"Passages\", well let me add one more poem to this first part because I want to give you a sample of what I've been--so there will be one \"Passages\", so those of you with great relief run out into the world will at least have been subject to something of what \"Passages\" is like, and I will read \"Epilogos\" and then I will read one of the poems that I have written, post-Bending the Bow and then you will have a sample of everything and you won't be missing a thing if you don't stay for the second part. [Audience laughter]. Okay, well a few things, but you might be missing them anyway.\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:10:39\nReads \"Transgressing the Real, Passages 27\" [from Bending the Bow].\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:14:14\nReads \"Epilogos\" [from Bending the Bow].\n\nRobert Duncan\n01:20:57\nNow the one poem from, poetry I've written since then, a poem called \"Achilles' Song\". One note before I read it, the island that we would ordinarily in American call ‘Leuke’ a [unintelligible], like in Leukemia--leuke. In Greek would be ‘Lay-okay’ and so I was very alarmed indeed when in this poem, as I was writing it came out ‘Loy-kay’ and it took me quite some time of sheer stage fright and horror at the mis-pronunciation recall the ‘Lauke’ in German is the [unintelligible] and so forth in German, and that I have had for years now, for some years now a tape of H.D. [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q236469] reading from her \"Helen in Egypt\", a poem which is really the mother poem of this poem, and not too much hidden in the poem, for those who know of  my closeness to H.D. who was certainly a surrogate mother for me. Thetis of the poem would certainly be the poetess H.D. and in that tape, H.D. who had lived for most of her life from the 20's on in Switzerland, uses the German pronunciation throughout, ‘Aloike’ and that's how I heard it in association with this poem. So I've finally recognized where it came from but it's an example of the fact that you cannot correct things in poems because it's sewn into a rhyme and absolutely belongs in the music here. Play it differently--I mean, it's what fits a poem not what fits some other system outside the poem that the poem must adhere to. Okay, \"Achilles' Song\".\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:22:44 \nReads \"Achilles' Song\".\n\nUnknown\n01:25:05\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nAudience\n01:25:06\nApplause.\n\nRobert Duncan\n01:25:16\nSo we'll take a break of ten minutes and then I'm going to read a rather short section because we're almost at 11 and that would seem, I want to read as many, something like four passages to give you of a feeling of moving through that and that would give you something like Passages are like.\n\nUnknown\n01:25:44\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nRobert Duncan\n01:25:45\nTwo aspects of the art, seem particularly mysteries to me as I've been working at the art of poetry since I was 19 and it's now 30 years. In relation to that thing we call rhyme, meter and so forth, I have come to think more and more that it's ratios and numbers that may be the heart of the matter. And at the same time as I begin to feel that at the heart of the matter, as one begins to, as one does with mysteries, be fearful about approaching the question. Some years ago, two years ago or so, with the poet Zukofsky [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q975481], who knows much more than I do of the art, and performs really awesomely in it, I said it had begun, I said \"Zuk,” I said, “I had begun to feel that it isn't a question about syllables or stresses and so forth, it's a question of numbers\". And he said \"Yes, I've decided by now I ought to, certainly if I don't know syllables and stresses and so forth, by now, I mean know them only in my hand, I certainly shouldn't be thinking about them. And I am now only dealing with 8's. All of these lines are 8's, straight through. I have not yet really phased the initiations of the question of numbers but I know that this is central as one moves into the period of working in the art that I'm in.\" The other thing, and that is that I have indicated it earlier, is that the nature of the time of the art is increasingly mysterious, the one thing I'm sure of it cannot be, positive absolutely defined in one area, for a long time I was doing happily enough with the formula that Christians made for themselves of time and eternity and their term of eternity which is the very present moment of any work of art and is also of course somehow containing the ensemble of all of the things created must also be like that time that physics talks about. That makes them puzzle why in the world our own time goes from a thing we call the past to the future. Whitehead [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q183372] solves it in Process and Reality by suggesting that we create, in every moment that we live a past and a future, and we live in a history consequently because that's what we create what we are, is pastness and future, and sum it up in a material, that is still persuasive. But a mystery is when none of the answers are answers and as long as they're not answers the artist has them as really, forces that move as art. Now I make this remark because, well I said something about chronologies I, in the past I have not read these two poems as they appear in the book, in readings, but I want to read them today and I'm going to just underline the transition I want you to see and share with me at this point. I arranged, for all that what I've said about chronologies, I arranged the poems in my volumes chronologically and largely because it seems to me a mystery as they go and the rhymes appear from one to the other, and one poem will be an announcement of a succeeding poem or themes will flow out of it. The one I'm going to read first is not a “Passages\" it's called \"Reflections\" and at the close, and as a theme of it, you will find the old man, who is as a matter of fact, I structure rhyme preceding it had a fire master appearing, who seems very close indeed to the master of fire, and the poem that came next, it may have been in a couple of weeks of so, this was a very productive period, concludes with a figure of an old man tuning a drum between a bowl of fire and a bowl of water, and it was followed by a \"Passages\" which is called \"The Fire\", and from it we can learn that the fire that you see in \"Passages\" which is catastrophic, and is held in a polarity with an ideogram with the natural world, that that which may have indeed be--is indeed a bowl of water, as you will see, I mean it's a stream of water that the fire is composed between a world of water and its own world of fire, but that fire that looks like a catastrophe you will find is the creative fire--if you go under \"Reflections\" and let the reflections that came first reflect into the poem following. Now these are things that you realize afterwards, in your own chronology. I am one of those poets who has the characteristic I find in my study of Whitman [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q81438] in the last three years that Whitman certainly was another poet who studied himself all the time. We have a great prohibition in our contemporary world against studying yourself, but I am not short on the world of ego, so I'm not really very disturbed about the fact that I study myself in the poetry. But the one thing I search to find is not something we would ordinarily call ourselves, I study the poet, the thing that the poems are creating in order for them to come into being. That I can sharply distinguish from myself. As sharply as you can do it, it takes office, the idea of office, and this again I got from my Medieval Studies. Okay, I'm going to read \"Reflections\" and then I'm going to read \"The Fire\" and then I will, the poems I will be reading from then on will be \"Passages\", \"Fire\" is one of \"Passages\". And \"Passages\" is as I explained, an open form that exists in these other universe of time, of something, like, you call eternity.\n \nRobert Duncan\n01:32:07\nReads \"Reflections\" [from Bending the Bow].\n \nEND\n01:34:38\n\n\nrobert_duncan_i006-11-096-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2] \n\nRobert Duncan\n00:00:00\nReads [“The Fire, Passages 13 from Bending the Bow; recording begins abruptly].\n \nUnknown\n00:13:11\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \n\nRobert Duncan\n00:13:12\n...beginning with a poem called \"Soldiers\", a poem in which, um, let's see, right, some lines of Victor Hugo [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q535] enter, I decided I should, well, I guess, lets see, no I don't want to read too late, and soldiers is rather long again, so I want- certain themes that are moving in \"Soldiers\" will reappear. In \"Soldiers\", a recurring line was one from a poem of Victor Hugo's, \"Dieu dans [unintelligible] reve\", which is a line really quite in tune with my own poetics, \"God, oh creator the- or the creator for us too in oneself whose dream, whose work goes much further than our dreams\" and so it's combined with a scene that's Vietnam and it's combined in the Soldiers with the theme of the recognition that in some mystery of that work that goes further than our dreams the soldiers in Vietnam most of them, have just there, and they're 19 or 18 and so forth, they have only there in which to make their lives. And they have only there in which to, to take their souls in the war, as the followers of Orpheus take soul in the poem. The wood to take fire from that dirty flame. A recognition that that is their field in which they must reach life's epiphany and its thing. And the line of Victor Hugo carried me forward to and returned me to grand themes of Victor Hugo's but it also took me back to Vietnam [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q881] and I wanted to give, before I read \"The Kao Dai\" a little sketch of that. There's a theme of Victor Hugo, by the way, of the fall of Lucifer [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q185498] in which, Lucifer's falling into his own denial of God and in falling he opens the univ- creation, and but in his falling a feather breaks loose from his wings and is floating mid-air, and the sight of God descending falls upon the feather and it becomes light and it turns into an angel and that angel is Liberty and that angel's entire message is to transform the rage and wrathful light that had fallen upon it into the reunion and resurrection of Satan, but of course both Satan and God must be called from their wrath, to reconciliation, so this angel, Liberty and Freedom is also the angel of reconciliation and Victor Hugo knew that also there must be some explanation for the fact that the desire and yearning for freedom and liberty has always been wrathful. Blake [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q41513] is puzzled by the same thing and I think that today, when all over the world, not only in Canada [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16], but in the United States [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q30], and in China [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29520], and Yugoslavia [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36704] and Russia [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q159] the wrath of Liberty is rising and it is the wrath of God against the civilization to its very roots which we know in our hearts are Godless. But that wrath must be reconciled, because it is itself that it's rising against and there's some mystery in this, so my poetry has begun to take up the figure of that angel and the angel comes into it. Now, in Vietnam, one of the strongest forces in the Viet Cong, not a communist group but a religious group, the Cao Dai [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q470364] and in order to read more in deeper into the Cao Dai, I wisely, I think, went back to sources to the early thirties before Vietnam was quite the cause it is today, and found this story and it came quite in line with my kooky family and my own poetry because it was at a medium's table in 1925 on Christmas Eve, when Christ descended and speaking in French, as I usually put it when I read my, something worse than American French, a French man would feel that that was blasphemy, but I'm after all repeating Christ's words in his own voice so that might be more serious yet that that voice was being attempted. Christ came into the medium and renounced in my birth day for the spirit is descending upon Vietnam and when we remember what happened to the very first generation of Christians who were burned in rows as torches, what the promise of Christ meant to his immediate blessing, the powers of martyrdom. The promise of Christ in 1925 was amply fulfilled to his new disciples. So amply, as a matter of fact, the Cao Dai had more than come to my mind, because the cathedral town of Cao Dai, which is [unintelligible] indeed exactly like a Catholic nunnery or convent, or a Buddhist nunnery or convent is Communist, is the province of Tay Ninh [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36608], and the Cathedral city of Tay Ninh, now it is been repeated over and over in American papers that when those planes were returning for missions in North Vietnam and hadn't dumped their missions, you're not supposed to return any bombs, you gotta dump them somewhere, so they'd dump them on Tay Ninh, you'd just go over the side and dump them on Tay Ninh, because this particular religious group was stubborn indeed in its inherences. Now, also interesting to me was this particular religious group had as its patron Saint Victor Hugo, and the first place that the French are, that the Vietnamese have French as their deepest religious and literary language and so Christ talked in French so Victor Hugo gave the whole line, it's Victor Hugo's Christ who talked to them at the medium tables in French, and they of course had their medium tables in the line of the tradition of Victor Hugo's own medium tables in the Isle of Jersey. So Victor Hugo becomes patron saint for these passages. In the passage, by the way, a passage called \"Orders\" and I will read a passage from it in which I am actually translating from Victor Hugo quite directly but it's a very long poem and keeping in tune with that master of the sublime is very difficult for us in the modern period. Here we are, the passage, wait a minute, it isn't in that poem, I always think it's in \"Orders\", but it's actually in place of a passage 22, that has the passage with Victor Hugo. I have been working on it for years, and it's mainly trying to keep in tune, I go over and over and over it again and then I find it very difficult to deal with 19th century poetry. But this is a passage straight translation, as literal as I could from Victor Hugo, but really, massive poem.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:21:11\nReads \"The Soldiers\" [from Bending the Bow].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:22:14\nCharming little poem called the \"Twentieth Century\", in case you want to know where we are.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:22:22\nReads \"Twentieth Century\" [published as “The Light, Passages 28” in Bending the Bow].\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:30:27\nI'll close with \"Stage Directions\".\n \nUnknown\n00:30:32\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\n\nRobert Duncan\n00:30:33\nReads [“Stage Directions, Passages 30” from Bending the Bow; begins mid-poem].\n \nAudience\n00:37:53\nApplause.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:38:12\nI'll add one more poem which has not been read aloud except at home today, this is one--I hope I've got the right note--this is a \"Structure of Rime\" that was composed on April Fool's day but it doesn't mean it isn't serious, I mean April 1st.\n \nRobert Duncan\n00:38:32\nReads \"Structure of Rime\" [unnumbered].\n \nAudience\n00:39:54\nApplause.\n \nEND\n00:40:06\n"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"Year-Specific Information: \\n\\nAt the time of this reading (1970), Robert Duncan had published Tribunals Passages 31-35 (Black Sparrow Press), a broadside called Poetic Disturbances (Cody’s Books) and A Selection of 65 Drawings from the One Drawing-Book 1952-1956 (Black Sparrow Press, 1970).  He was working on Ground Work (privately printed, 1971) and Robert Duncan: An Interview by George Bowering & Robert Hogg (The Coach House Press, 1971).\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"Local Connections: \\n \\nDuncan’s first Canadian reading, in  Vancouver by invitation of Warren Tallman at University of British Columbia, occurred in 1961- to an audience of Bowering, Fred Wah and Frank Davey. These readings inspired the creation of Tish magazine[1]. Robert Duncan and George Bowering have corresponded with each other after this reading.\",\"type\":\"General\"},{\"note\":\"Original transcript, research, introduction and edits by Celyn Harding-Jones\\n\\nAdditional research and edits by Sarah McDonnell and Ali Barillaro\",\"type\":\"Cataloguer\"},{\"note\":\"2 reel-to-reel tapes>3 CDs>2 digital files\",\"type\":\"Preservation\"}]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/robert-duncan-an-interview-april-19-1969/oclc/963367366&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Bowering, George and Robert Hogg. Robert Duncan: an interview by George Bowering &       \\tRobert Hogg. Montreal: A Beaver Kosmos Folio, 1969. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/bending-the-bow/oclc/612189355&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. Bending the Bow. New York: New Directions, 1968.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/caesars-gate-poems-1949-1950/oclc/270147363&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. Caesar’s Gate: Poems, 1949-1950. Divers Press, 1955.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/first-decade-selected-poems-1940-1950/oclc/500569831&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. First Decade: Selected Poems 1940-1950. Fulcrum, 1969.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/ground-work-before-the-war-in-the-dark/oclc/62509155&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Bertholf, Robert; Duncan, Robert; Maynard, James. Ground Work II: Before the War, In the Dark. New York: New Directions, 1985.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/heavenly-city-earthly-city/oclc/639710248&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. Heavenly and Earthly City. Berkeley: Miscellany Editions, 1949. \"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/opening-of-the-field/oclc/926421653&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. The Opening of the Field. Grove Press, 1960.\"},{\"url\":\"<https://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-american-literature/oclc/54356940&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"\\\"Duncan, Robert [Edward]\\\". The Oxford Companion to American Literature. James D. Hart (ed),        Phillip W. Leininger (rev). Oxford University Press 1995.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/roots-and-branches/oclc/926421654&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. Roots and Branches. New York: Scribners, 1964.\"},{\"url\":\"https://www.worldcat.org/title/new-release-from-oyez-the-years-as-catches-first-poems-1939-1946-by-robert-duncan-with-an-introduction-and-bibliography-by-the-author/oclc/62513361&referer=brief_results\",\"citation\":\"Duncan, Robert. The Years as Catches: First Poems. Berkeley: Oyez Press, 1966.\"},{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"Patterson, Ian. “Duncan, Robert Edward 1919-”. Literature Online Biography. H.W. Wilson         \\tCompany, 2000. \"}]"],"_version_":1853670548887830528,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.477Z","digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0006_11_0096-1_back.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0006_11_0096-1_back.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Robert Duncan Tape Box 1 - Back\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0006_11_0096-1_front.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0006_11_0096-1_front.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Robert Duncan Tape Box 1 - 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Front\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0006_11_0096-2_side.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0006_11_0096-2_side.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Robert Duncan Tape Box 2 - Spine\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/I0006_11_0096-2_tape.jpg\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"I0006_11_0096-2_tape.jpg\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0cAe1GF8xZsc62jpUDXwgvyCd6ZmvSw\",\"title\":\"Robert Duncan Tape Box 2 - Reel\",\"credit\":\"Drew Bernet\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Photograph\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://files.spokenweb.ca/concordia/sgw/audio/all_mp3/robert_duncan_i006-11-096-1.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"files.spokenweb.ca>concordia>sgw>audio>all_mp3\",\"filename\":\"robert_duncan_i006-11-096-1.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"01:34:38\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"227.2 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"robert_duncan_i006-11-096-1.mp3 [File 1 of 2] \\n \\nGeorge Bowering\\n00:00:00\\n...say anything about Robert Duncan's credentials, so I'll make this as brief as possible. M.L. Rosenthal [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6723336] said, a little while ago in the Reporter that Duncan [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q57421163] was the best of the poets in the experimental tradition and Warren Tolman says he's the best poet writing in the English Language, and I'd probably go further than that. And it's the reading we've been waiting for, most of us, all year, so I'd like to give him as much time as there possibly is. Robert Duncan.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:00:44\\nIn the early 50's, I belonged to a, not a group, because as a matter of fact we were scattered, some in Europe and some in America and didn't know each other, but we were all reacting to a, we all had response of a feeling of poetic responsibility and also a poetic mission, arising out of our response to the publication of Ezra Pound's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q163366] \\\"Pisan Cantos\\\" [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2701465] and the publication that came year after year of the parts of William Carlos Williams's [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q178106] \\\"Paterson\\\" [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7017378] but in the same period in magazines, some of the poetry of the later William Carlos Williams was appearing. And it does interest me, although the command of the Modernists had been to write in a natural speech, that in response to features that were appearing in Williams more than Pound, because Pound's lines are all syntactic utterances, but in Williams there's a kind of enjambment and there was a juncture appearing at the end of lines. And we, we took that juncture over and imposed it upon the language, but even in imposing it, found that we had arrived at something that's quite common indeed in our English speech, the stutter is at one end of it, but it is one of the forms we have when we are emotionally excited and things are broken up into phrases and words become almost painful and impossible to say, and this encounter we explored for some time. Later, I'm going to be reading, in passages, which will bring into question radically something related to his. My poetry developed along lines that I began to see as allied to the collage, things that were appearing in American painting, that is whole elements and bits would be taken from anywhere, and very early, at the time, as a matter of fact that I was writing The Opening of the Field, I viewed myself as a kind of jackdaw of poetry and gave up entirely worrying about if I had any originality or had a voice of my own. I was much more attracted picking up things and building them into something, so I was a weaver, I felt in some ways, almost before I was a speaker, and I was a weaver of voices and did not care, or- I decided well, I happen to be the one who is doing this, so certainly that's one thing that I don't have to have an effort about. There's nothing else that's going to be moving out from here. In passages, you'll find a new feature about that collage, but it's already contained in the thing I was suggesting that we took over- the juncture, Creeley [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q918620] for instance built a whole personal style from that juncture and by making its articulation radical, and forcing it into a depth of an emotional statement, and of course of an intellectual statement, because the whole framework of thought changes. Very striking to us in the very beginning was that form was the content, not, it was very hard to determine it, you could say that it even determined content, there was no cause to effect relationship for us, between form and content. Structure determined the nature of what was to thought, like the structure of a body is to what we are, and we didn't think of them as divided, so we were incarnationists in that sense. I feel very strongly that you'll find that repeatedly a theme of my poetry the incarnation of Christ [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q302], the incarnation of spirit and the body, that spirit, that the divine world is manifest and incarnate, and that in its- led us back to the poem as the incarnation and place in which- the spirit doesn't enter poetry, incarnate, it exists. But it was also a collage and you will hear Greek and French entering this world of a collage, and it will be as reformed as the American language is when it enters my collage. And reformed to American contours, the contours of French, and the contours of Greek disappear, forced back into an American stress system, which I find analogous. The French poets were extremely disturbed when Stravinsky set them, she could not bear to hear [Persephone (?)] and because they all came out, French all came out to be Russian in its entire tonation and the French not very happy when the French language turns up in an intonation. I'm thinking of the Parisian, but no Frenchman's very happy about the French language turning up, turning out to be American or Russian. Now my poetry doesn't turn out to be exactly American either, it turns out to be strictly forced back to conform to my poetic patterns, and Greek is not intoned but is forced into a stress pattern. However, with Greek I'm in for free because there's no man who can say what you do with it anyway. In America, we have one system, in Germany, they have another system, and in England, they have, still, a third system of what to do with vowels and what to do with the whole thing. And there's a controversy about whether you do have pitch or whether you do have stress and that arises from the fact that the Hellenistic Greeks [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q428995] already couldn't figure out exactly what you did with those Greek choruses, and they had to put those marks in to instruct their readers what to do, and we don't know what those marks meant for sure [audience laughter]. But they certainly didn't know what it had been like 500 years before. They did poorer, I take it, than the poorest, and that would include me, informed of us do with Middle English [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36395], and I guess we're nearer to it than they were. Okay, well, we'll just start out and I want to take a path, I'm going to take a path through beginning with a small group of poems from The Opening of the Field.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:07:46\\nReads \\\"The Law I Love is Major Mover” from The Opening of the Field.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:10:44\\nWhen I was about 30, a great Medieval Historian was teaching at the University of California [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q184478], where I made my living teaching, typing thesis and term papers when I was really hard out of luck and the rumour was very thick indeed that something extraordinary had happened, I think, and my impression is that Universities kill off scholars today much faster than they- they certainly don't kill off poets, they give them very handsome fees to come for a week or so, but they certainly kill off scholars, but the existence- perhaps only the World War with its refugee professors from Europe brought this kind of scholarship onto the scene at the University of California and I returned to school to take up Medieval Studies. One of the, clearly, in my work I, the one course, and I studied with that man until he left for the Princeton Institute of Advanced Learning, studied for him--with him for two and a half years, the course that most changed my poetry was a course on Medieval law, and the growth of constitutional law, because the very basis of poetry I think is a- of art, is the discovery of laws, the laws that finally we can trace through from those Medieval concepts of law and constant meditations upon law so I'm going to read a couple of more poems of our- in which this concept of law moves. This is \\\"Structure of Rime XIII\\\" and it's part of an open construct that is a construct that has nothing in its concept, does not belong to a world of cause or effect. It has a chronology, but its chronology is like our chronological time, that is seen by contemporary physics as an anomaly within a time--within a physical time that cannot possibly have the character of a chronological sequence. The best they can explain is that we must inhabit a thread that is suspended in actual time, because actual physical time cannot really be one directional, and we experience one directional time because we are really caught in some isolated thread, in the medium of time. So in \\\"Structure of Rime\\\" I conceive of myself not in a chronology, although I experience it, being human as such, but as entering such a domain in which real law exists and real time exists, and the real form to which the poem refers and from which it derives its form. The real form has no beginning or end, and is much faster, is universal, so the--in writing the poem I do not create a form, but participate in a form which is of the nature that we believe the physical world to be and I am much for a convert of Whitehead's process and reality in which we believe the spiritual world to be. And that's where \\\"The Structure of Rime\\\" takes place. When I say 'thirteen',  that's of course, in my own sequence then and I conceive of that sequence as actually existing in a part of the mosaic that does not have the character of sequence.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:14:29\\nReads \\\"Structure of Rime XIII\\\" from The Opening of the Field. \\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:16:59\\nSome time shortly after The Opening of the Field was published, I was invited up to Portland [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6106] by a lawyer and his wife to talk to a small group and I learned in correspondence that he had been attracted to my poetry because of the concepts of law as they move through poems, and so I wrote, for them, the poem called \\\"The Law\\\", a series and variation.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:17:35\\nReads \\\"The Law\\\" [from Roots and Branches].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:23:27\\nWhen Adams [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11806] said, “the which”, meaning, he said, \\\"Democracy, the which requires the continual exercise of virtue beyond the reach of human infirmity, even in its best estate\\\" he was writing to Jefferson and talking about something that was absolutely necessary, he did not mean that we could escape from what required what was impossible. We had to live in the impossible, which is where I found myself entirely in concord with certainly a poet understands what it is to live in the impossible. He speaks in the first place in a voice which is impossible for himself to speak in, and before which he must always be a flunk out and in some sense, a political- a poetical failure in relation to what everywhere's own poetics is to point out what is necessary. Let me in relation to the law again, read the opening of a poem that I will be later be reading entire, but I want to bring it in context with these poems and the law, and close it with a John Adams that I discovered only a passage of John Adams that I discovered for myself, only about what, it's two or three years ago, two years ago. \\\"Reading on Myth\\\", this was from a book called I think it's called 18th Century Against the Gods, or confronts--The 18th Century Confronts the Gods and the chapter on John Adams's mythology was a fascinating chapter, and this passage of the poem is built up entirely with no interpolations at all of--it's built up to the place where I cease to read it, with no interpolations at all of passages of the marginalia that John Adams writes in an Encyclopedia of Mythology.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:25:32\\nReads [\\\"John Adams’s Marginalia...\\\"].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:26:53\\nMove back to another early poem in The Opening of the Field that was formative to, throughout my work and the last I guess it must be, each one of these is about three, this is the last ten years. The Field began in 1956, so it must be the last 14 years. And this poem is written in 1956. Take my coat off. In articulating the line, we were opening up- Pound had very early said [unintelligible] by the musical phrase and as I said, since his phrases were identical with syntactic utterances, with sentence utterances, the phrase is- the phrase is simpler than the phrases we use, where often they are enjambed, where often they disturb the meaning of the sentence and suspend elements so that they operate in various parts we did not want what was called an ambiguity by Mr. [Adams (?)], we wanted a multi-phasic area of meanings which is something very different. We wanted all parts to operate within all other parts. And I think this is a crucial difference from what let's say fascinated the metaphysicals of the post-Eliot [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q37767] period in their idea of ambiguities. We wanted one meaning operating within another meaning and they wanted one meaning secretly giving another meaning, I may have such things too, but I mean it's a very different feeling for us. Certainly they did not have to come to articulate as we did, and with these poems, when I get to, as you'll see in passages, when I get into rhythmic articulations where only my body is intelligent enough to keep them, so I have to throw them back into my hands and to my body, a dance can carry them and a dance is really in a sense, the poem in which I moved straight forward and realized how un-literary this was and not exactly song either, and that this dance centre was going to be for whole sections of poems. So, there's a key poem.\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:29:27\\nReads \\\"The Dance\\\" [from The Opening of the Field].\\n\\nUnknown\\n00:31:32\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:31:33\\nResumes reading \\\"The Dance\\\" [from The Opening of the Field].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:32:09.\\nSomeone said this evening I probably wouldn't read The Pindar poems, I will. Oh let me sing a song for you, songs, I have a couple of songs that are in books. Songs for me are not that quaint form that, a few of them are like the night nurse's songs, the song the night nurse sang. But a song of the old order and some of the other songs are actual songs, that means when I was writing them, a tune came. And they had only one voice to be in, mine, and we could even say unhappily, but there they were. And startled I was when, this is I think, one of the first songs that came that really belonged in a book of poetry. I had early had some songs in Faust Foutu in a sort of a long play that would never get performed in my mind so I was able to whatever I wanted to in it, and- which is a great kind of play to write, because you don't have to worry about anyone else solving any problems, you can name it, they can be on the moon, or whatever, have no stage dimension problems, but also of course I had no song dimension problems but when I wrote this song, \\\"Gee, I know I'm going to have to get up and sing it\\\", well of course now you'll get away with it because how rare you'd hear a poet's voice, unless a poet's already like your happy rock-n-roll singer, which I ain't as you will hear. My idea of song is exceedingly primitive indeed, my impression is very, I think you will hear it in this song, it comes from a brief period in which to much the horror of my theosophical parents, but because we were living in a small town and all your friends went to a Sunday School, I went for several years to a Methodist Sunday school and somebody along the line gave me the hint that hymns would come out much better if I just moved my mouth and didn't join in, happily, the lovely music that was going on and so of course I always wanted to write a hymn and there's something in the Methodist hymnal for sure in the song I'm going to sing. \\\"A Song of the Old Order\\\". It's not strictly Methodist in theology, but I meant that it's something of the Methodist hymn. However, I will sing also, by following another song that is certainly Calvinist [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q101849], it's a Halloween song, and like only the scotch can possibly dig out of there- the Calvinist counter hymnal.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:34:52\\nSings \\\"A Song of the Old Order\\\" [from The Opening of the Field].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:38:05\\nThat was considerably higher than I've ever tried to do it before. [Audience laughter]. But, like a poem, when you're writing it, when you're in it, you're in for it. You can't re-model it to something you think you might get through with. So I will now do the Pindar poem. That somewhat determines what long poem we're going to do. And since this is the first time I've read here in Montreal, some other places I read, I try and give them new stuff, but I take it outside of some tapes that might be available, you haven't really heard these poems. And this will be the last one from The Opening of the Field. I'll pick up a couple from Roots and Branches and then I will be reading from the current, the Bending the Bow and then after the break I'll read some of the new poems that I've written since Bending the Bow. [Take off Biney's Law (?).] No, this is not the beginning of a Ginsberg [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6711] round [laughter.] \\\"Beginning with a Line by Pindar\\\", I am ending up with an exhibition by Ginsberg, [laughter.] We've gotten so [unintelligible] in San Francisco [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62] since all barriers of all kinds were down you really couldn't compete with the show, so you've got, I mean what to do. Common, ordinary people are just left out, you've got to be somebody extraordinary now to [audience laughter], and poetry has to be my extraordinary thing. Believe me, the rest of me is just me. \\\"A Poem Beginning with a Line by Pindar\\\".\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:40:17\\nReads \\\"A Poem Beginning with a Line by Pindar\\\" [from The Opening of the Field].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:54:15\\nI'll read two poems from--that were requested from Roots and Branches.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:54:30\\nReads [\\\"Risk”] from Roots and Branches.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:59:22\\nThe other poem I will read from Roots and Branches is \\\"The Continent\\\". My poetic thought continuously arises from the ground of my happy and, believe me, wildly misunderstanding readings of contemporary science. And the one real poetic source I have is not a literary magazine but Scientific American [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q39379] which I avidly read. So I'm more likely to be studying language than I am to be studying poems and more likely to be studying the world, than I am to be- well, I can't say that, language and the world get even treatment. The poem \\\"The Continent\\\" came from the re-assertion that has come in recent years of evidence which has rebuilt the picture of the continental drift. And I was happy at the coordinates to find that Charles Olson [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q922978], who also ransacks the same magazine, but does not have the same misunderstandings of the magazine by any means, we have quite a, we sometimes come to [loggerheads (?) ] in our very positively taken misunderstandings of what is. He also had built sections of “Maximus [Poems]” on the continental drift. I love puns of course right away, and so does he, and if you get my drift in poetry, you will see something of what is revealed when we begin to get the drift of those continents and the fittingness of poetry is of course the logic whereby we identify that the continents originally fitted together and identified the sequence of things that happened. They do fit together, but they must have- I mean, the universe- the Neo-plateness, [unintelligible], well no, it isn't a neo-plate, well, it's a near neo-plate, and it's [unintelligible] Judas [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q81018] refers to the masterpiece which is the Universe, that's the only masterpiece and the rest of us compose masterpieces because we are children of the universe, although we may not recognize that that's what we are doing. Some of us don't have entire respect for what we belong to. \\\"The Continent\\\".\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:01:49\\nReads \\\"The Continent\\\" from Roots and Branches.\\n \\nUnknown\\n01:03:39\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n01:03:40\\nResumes reading \\\"The Continent\\\" from Roots and Branches.\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n01:06:16\\n[Unintelligible] break in tone I'll sing that song I mentioned, the second one that comes from a Calvinist anti-hymnal. It's a song from my Halloween masque. And it's “A Country Wife’s Song”, the country husband is lying in bed, snoring away and the wife rises silently, puts a stick in the bed and a stone on the pillow and sings the following song.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:07:50\\nPerforms “A Country Wife’s Song” [from Roots and Branches].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:09:38\\nWe seem to be close to 10:30 so I'm going to just--I won't read--well, I'd like to read one passage before the intermission and I would also like to read the poem \\\"Epilogos\\\", then we'll have a break, I would suggest about 10 minutes and I will then read in the second part, I will be reading from \\\"Passages\\\", well let me add one more poem to this first part because I want to give you a sample of what I've been--so there will be one \\\"Passages\\\", so those of you with great relief run out into the world will at least have been subject to something of what \\\"Passages\\\" is like, and I will read \\\"Epilogos\\\" and then I will read one of the poems that I have written, post-Bending the Bow and then you will have a sample of everything and you won't be missing a thing if you don't stay for the second part. [Audience laughter]. Okay, well a few things, but you might be missing them anyway.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:10:39\\nReads \\\"Transgressing the Real, Passages 27\\\" [from Bending the Bow].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:14:14\\nReads \\\"Epilogos\\\" [from Bending the Bow].\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n01:20:57\\nNow the one poem from, poetry I've written since then, a poem called \\\"Achilles' Song\\\". One note before I read it, the island that we would ordinarily in American call ‘Leuke’ a [unintelligible], like in Leukemia--leuke. In Greek would be ‘Lay-okay’ and so I was very alarmed indeed when in this poem, as I was writing it came out ‘Loy-kay’ and it took me quite some time of sheer stage fright and horror at the mis-pronunciation recall the ‘Lauke’ in German is the [unintelligible] and so forth in German, and that I have had for years now, for some years now a tape of H.D. [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q236469] reading from her \\\"Helen in Egypt\\\", a poem which is really the mother poem of this poem, and not too much hidden in the poem, for those who know of  my closeness to H.D. who was certainly a surrogate mother for me. Thetis of the poem would certainly be the poetess H.D. and in that tape, H.D. who had lived for most of her life from the 20's on in Switzerland, uses the German pronunciation throughout, ‘Aloike’ and that's how I heard it in association with this poem. So I've finally recognized where it came from but it's an example of the fact that you cannot correct things in poems because it's sewn into a rhyme and absolutely belongs in the music here. Play it differently--I mean, it's what fits a poem not what fits some other system outside the poem that the poem must adhere to. Okay, \\\"Achilles' Song\\\".\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:22:44 \\nReads \\\"Achilles' Song\\\".\\n\\nUnknown\\n01:25:05\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nAudience\\n01:25:06\\nApplause.\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n01:25:16\\nSo we'll take a break of ten minutes and then I'm going to read a rather short section because we're almost at 11 and that would seem, I want to read as many, something like four passages to give you of a feeling of moving through that and that would give you something like Passages are like.\\n\\nUnknown\\n01:25:44\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n01:25:45\\nTwo aspects of the art, seem particularly mysteries to me as I've been working at the art of poetry since I was 19 and it's now 30 years. In relation to that thing we call rhyme, meter and so forth, I have come to think more and more that it's ratios and numbers that may be the heart of the matter. And at the same time as I begin to feel that at the heart of the matter, as one begins to, as one does with mysteries, be fearful about approaching the question. Some years ago, two years ago or so, with the poet Zukofsky [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q975481], who knows much more than I do of the art, and performs really awesomely in it, I said it had begun, I said \\\"Zuk,” I said, “I had begun to feel that it isn't a question about syllables or stresses and so forth, it's a question of numbers\\\". And he said \\\"Yes, I've decided by now I ought to, certainly if I don't know syllables and stresses and so forth, by now, I mean know them only in my hand, I certainly shouldn't be thinking about them. And I am now only dealing with 8's. All of these lines are 8's, straight through. I have not yet really phased the initiations of the question of numbers but I know that this is central as one moves into the period of working in the art that I'm in.\\\" The other thing, and that is that I have indicated it earlier, is that the nature of the time of the art is increasingly mysterious, the one thing I'm sure of it cannot be, positive absolutely defined in one area, for a long time I was doing happily enough with the formula that Christians made for themselves of time and eternity and their term of eternity which is the very present moment of any work of art and is also of course somehow containing the ensemble of all of the things created must also be like that time that physics talks about. That makes them puzzle why in the world our own time goes from a thing we call the past to the future. Whitehead [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q183372] solves it in Process and Reality by suggesting that we create, in every moment that we live a past and a future, and we live in a history consequently because that's what we create what we are, is pastness and future, and sum it up in a material, that is still persuasive. But a mystery is when none of the answers are answers and as long as they're not answers the artist has them as really, forces that move as art. Now I make this remark because, well I said something about chronologies I, in the past I have not read these two poems as they appear in the book, in readings, but I want to read them today and I'm going to just underline the transition I want you to see and share with me at this point. I arranged, for all that what I've said about chronologies, I arranged the poems in my volumes chronologically and largely because it seems to me a mystery as they go and the rhymes appear from one to the other, and one poem will be an announcement of a succeeding poem or themes will flow out of it. The one I'm going to read first is not a “Passages\\\" it's called \\\"Reflections\\\" and at the close, and as a theme of it, you will find the old man, who is as a matter of fact, I structure rhyme preceding it had a fire master appearing, who seems very close indeed to the master of fire, and the poem that came next, it may have been in a couple of weeks of so, this was a very productive period, concludes with a figure of an old man tuning a drum between a bowl of fire and a bowl of water, and it was followed by a \\\"Passages\\\" which is called \\\"The Fire\\\", and from it we can learn that the fire that you see in \\\"Passages\\\" which is catastrophic, and is held in a polarity with an ideogram with the natural world, that that which may have indeed be--is indeed a bowl of water, as you will see, I mean it's a stream of water that the fire is composed between a world of water and its own world of fire, but that fire that looks like a catastrophe you will find is the creative fire--if you go under \\\"Reflections\\\" and let the reflections that came first reflect into the poem following. Now these are things that you realize afterwards, in your own chronology. I am one of those poets who has the characteristic I find in my study of Whitman [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q81438] in the last three years that Whitman certainly was another poet who studied himself all the time. We have a great prohibition in our contemporary world against studying yourself, but I am not short on the world of ego, so I'm not really very disturbed about the fact that I study myself in the poetry. But the one thing I search to find is not something we would ordinarily call ourselves, I study the poet, the thing that the poems are creating in order for them to come into being. That I can sharply distinguish from myself. As sharply as you can do it, it takes office, the idea of office, and this again I got from my Medieval Studies. Okay, I'm going to read \\\"Reflections\\\" and then I'm going to read \\\"The Fire\\\" and then I will, the poems I will be reading from then on will be \\\"Passages\\\", \\\"Fire\\\" is one of \\\"Passages\\\". And \\\"Passages\\\" is as I explained, an open form that exists in these other universe of time, of something, like, you call eternity.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n01:32:07\\nReads \\\"Reflections\\\" [from Bending the Bow].\\n \\nEND\\n01:34:38\\n\",\"notes\":\"Robert Duncan reads from The Opening of the Field (Grove Press, 1960), Roots and Branches (New Directions, 1964), and Bending the Bow (New Directions, 1968).\\n\\nI006-11-096.1=AC.1\\n\\n00:00- George Bowering introduces Robert Duncan [INDEX: M.L. Rosenthall, Warren Tallman [sp?], The Reporter, experimental poetry]\\n00:44- Robert Duncan speaks about his poetry, introduces reading. [INDEX: Ezra Pound’s       \\t“Pisan Cantos”, William Carlos William’s “Paterson” and other poetry, impact of the   \\tmodernist tradition, natural speech, syntactic utterances, enjambment in the line, collage,      \\tAmerican Painting, The Opening of the Field, voice, Robert Creeley, form of content,      \\tincarnation of Christ,  Greek and French languages, Igor Stravinsky, Middle English]\\n07:46- Reads “The Law I Love is Major Mover” from The Opening of the Field [all poems to   follow are from this book]\\n10:44- Introduces “The Structure of Rime XIII”. [INDEX: Medieval Historian teaching at         \\tUniversity of California, World War refugee Professors migrating from Europe, Princeton         \\tInstitute for Advanced Learning, Medieval Law, discovery of laws, open construct poem,         \\tchronological time]\\n14:29- Reads “The Structure of Rime XIII”\\n16:59- Introduces “The Law”\\n17:35- Reads “The Law”\\n23:27- Introduces first line “John Adams Marginalia...” [INDEX: John Adams, Democracy, \\tThomas Jefferson, The 18th Century Confronts the Gods by Frank E. Manuel, Encyclopedia of Mythology]\\n25:32- Reads first line “John Adams Marginalia...”\\n25:53- Introduces “The Dance” and discusses his poetry [INDEX: The Opening of the Field,   \\tEzra Pound, phrases and lines, enjambments, disturb meaning of sentences, multi-phasic      \\tarea of meanings, Mr. Adamson [?], metaphysics of the post-Eliot period, rhythmic      \\tarticulations, dance]\\n29:27- Reads “The Dance” [recording is cut and then resumes at 31:33.90]\\n32:09- Introduces “A Song of the Old Order” [INDEX: Songs, process of writing songs, Faust Foutu An Entertainment in Four parts (play), Methodist Sunday School, Methodist   hymnal, Calvinist counter hymnal]\\n34:52- Sings “A Song of the Old Order”\\n38:05- Introduces “A Poem Beginning with the Line by Pindar”, outlines the rest of the       \\treading. [INDEX: Roots and Branches, Bending the Bow, new poems, Allen Ginsberg    \\t‘show’, San Francisco]\\n40:17- Reads “A Poem Beginning with the Line by Pindar”\\n54:15.78- END OF RECORDING\\n \\nI006-11-096.1=AC.2\\n \\n00:00- Robert Duncan introduces “Risk” [INDEX:Roots and Branches]\\n00:14- Reads first line “Risk”\\n05:06- Introduces “The Continent” [INDEX: poetry from contemporary science, Scientific     \\tAmerican magazine, continental drift, Charles Olson, The Maximus Poems, neo-plates]\\n07:33- Reads “The Continent”\\n12:00- Introduces “Song”\\n12:49- Sings “Song”\\n15:22- Introduces series of poems [INDEX: “Epilogos”, Of the War: Passages 22-27,   \\tBending the Bow]\\n16:23- Reads “Transgressing the Real”\\n19:58- Reads “Epilogos”\\n26:41- Introduces “Achilles' Song” [INDEX: mispronunciation of Greek Island Leuke, H.D.   \\treading “Helen in Egypt”, Switzerland, German]\\n28:28- Reads “Achilles' Song”\\n31:00- Introduces poems read after the break\\n31:29- Introduces “Reflections” and talks about his poetry [INDEX: Rhyme, meter, ratios and    numbers, Louis Zukofsky, time and eternity, Alfred North Whitehead’s Process and Reality, chronology, Of the War: Passages 22-27, “The Fire”, “Reflections”]\\n37:51- Reads “Reflections”\\n40:23.12- END OF RECORDING\\n\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/robert-duncan-at-sgwu-1970/#1\"},{\"file_url\":\"https://files.spokenweb.ca/concordia/sgw/audio/all_mp3/robert_duncan_i006-11-096-2.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"files.spokenweb.ca>concordia>sgw>audio>all_mp3\",\"filename\":\"robert_duncan_i006-11-096-2.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"\",\"duration\":\"00:40:06\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"96.3 MB\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"robert_duncan_i006-11-096-2.mp3 [File 2 of 2] \\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:00:00\\nReads [“The Fire, Passages 13 from Bending the Bow; recording begins abruptly].\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:13:11\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed]. \\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:13:12\\n...beginning with a poem called \\\"Soldiers\\\", a poem in which, um, let's see, right, some lines of Victor Hugo [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q535] enter, I decided I should, well, I guess, lets see, no I don't want to read too late, and soldiers is rather long again, so I want- certain themes that are moving in \\\"Soldiers\\\" will reappear. In \\\"Soldiers\\\", a recurring line was one from a poem of Victor Hugo's, \\\"Dieu dans [unintelligible] reve\\\", which is a line really quite in tune with my own poetics, \\\"God, oh creator the- or the creator for us too in oneself whose dream, whose work goes much further than our dreams\\\" and so it's combined with a scene that's Vietnam and it's combined in the Soldiers with the theme of the recognition that in some mystery of that work that goes further than our dreams the soldiers in Vietnam most of them, have just there, and they're 19 or 18 and so forth, they have only there in which to make their lives. And they have only there in which to, to take their souls in the war, as the followers of Orpheus take soul in the poem. The wood to take fire from that dirty flame. A recognition that that is their field in which they must reach life's epiphany and its thing. And the line of Victor Hugo carried me forward to and returned me to grand themes of Victor Hugo's but it also took me back to Vietnam [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q881] and I wanted to give, before I read \\\"The Kao Dai\\\" a little sketch of that. There's a theme of Victor Hugo, by the way, of the fall of Lucifer [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q185498] in which, Lucifer's falling into his own denial of God and in falling he opens the univ- creation, and but in his falling a feather breaks loose from his wings and is floating mid-air, and the sight of God descending falls upon the feather and it becomes light and it turns into an angel and that angel is Liberty and that angel's entire message is to transform the rage and wrathful light that had fallen upon it into the reunion and resurrection of Satan, but of course both Satan and God must be called from their wrath, to reconciliation, so this angel, Liberty and Freedom is also the angel of reconciliation and Victor Hugo knew that also there must be some explanation for the fact that the desire and yearning for freedom and liberty has always been wrathful. Blake [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q41513] is puzzled by the same thing and I think that today, when all over the world, not only in Canada [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16], but in the United States [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q30], and in China [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29520], and Yugoslavia [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36704] and Russia [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q159] the wrath of Liberty is rising and it is the wrath of God against the civilization to its very roots which we know in our hearts are Godless. But that wrath must be reconciled, because it is itself that it's rising against and there's some mystery in this, so my poetry has begun to take up the figure of that angel and the angel comes into it. Now, in Vietnam, one of the strongest forces in the Viet Cong, not a communist group but a religious group, the Cao Dai [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q470364] and in order to read more in deeper into the Cao Dai, I wisely, I think, went back to sources to the early thirties before Vietnam was quite the cause it is today, and found this story and it came quite in line with my kooky family and my own poetry because it was at a medium's table in 1925 on Christmas Eve, when Christ descended and speaking in French, as I usually put it when I read my, something worse than American French, a French man would feel that that was blasphemy, but I'm after all repeating Christ's words in his own voice so that might be more serious yet that that voice was being attempted. Christ came into the medium and renounced in my birth day for the spirit is descending upon Vietnam and when we remember what happened to the very first generation of Christians who were burned in rows as torches, what the promise of Christ meant to his immediate blessing, the powers of martyrdom. The promise of Christ in 1925 was amply fulfilled to his new disciples. So amply, as a matter of fact, the Cao Dai had more than come to my mind, because the cathedral town of Cao Dai, which is [unintelligible] indeed exactly like a Catholic nunnery or convent, or a Buddhist nunnery or convent is Communist, is the province of Tay Ninh [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q36608], and the Cathedral city of Tay Ninh, now it is been repeated over and over in American papers that when those planes were returning for missions in North Vietnam and hadn't dumped their missions, you're not supposed to return any bombs, you gotta dump them somewhere, so they'd dump them on Tay Ninh, you'd just go over the side and dump them on Tay Ninh, because this particular religious group was stubborn indeed in its inherences. Now, also interesting to me was this particular religious group had as its patron Saint Victor Hugo, and the first place that the French are, that the Vietnamese have French as their deepest religious and literary language and so Christ talked in French so Victor Hugo gave the whole line, it's Victor Hugo's Christ who talked to them at the medium tables in French, and they of course had their medium tables in the line of the tradition of Victor Hugo's own medium tables in the Isle of Jersey. So Victor Hugo becomes patron saint for these passages. In the passage, by the way, a passage called \\\"Orders\\\" and I will read a passage from it in which I am actually translating from Victor Hugo quite directly but it's a very long poem and keeping in tune with that master of the sublime is very difficult for us in the modern period. Here we are, the passage, wait a minute, it isn't in that poem, I always think it's in \\\"Orders\\\", but it's actually in place of a passage 22, that has the passage with Victor Hugo. I have been working on it for years, and it's mainly trying to keep in tune, I go over and over and over it again and then I find it very difficult to deal with 19th century poetry. But this is a passage straight translation, as literal as I could from Victor Hugo, but really, massive poem.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:21:11\\nReads \\\"The Soldiers\\\" [from Bending the Bow].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:22:14\\nCharming little poem called the \\\"Twentieth Century\\\", in case you want to know where we are.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:22:22\\nReads \\\"Twentieth Century\\\" [published as “The Light, Passages 28” in Bending the Bow].\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:30:27\\nI'll close with \\\"Stage Directions\\\".\\n \\nUnknown\\n00:30:32\\n[Cut or edit made in tape. Unknown amount of time elapsed].\\n\\nRobert Duncan\\n00:30:33\\nReads [“Stage Directions, Passages 30” from Bending the Bow; begins mid-poem].\\n \\nAudience\\n00:37:53\\nApplause.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:38:12\\nI'll add one more poem which has not been read aloud except at home today, this is one--I hope I've got the right note--this is a \\\"Structure of Rime\\\" that was composed on April Fool's day but it doesn't mean it isn't serious, I mean April 1st.\\n \\nRobert Duncan\\n00:38:32\\nReads \\\"Structure of Rime\\\" [unnumbered].\\n \\nAudience\\n00:39:54\\nApplause.\\n \\nEND\\n00:40:06\\n\",\"notes\":\"Robert Duncan reads from The Opening of the Field (Grove Press, 1960), Roots and Branches (New Directions, 1964), and Bending the Bow (New Directions, 1968).\\n\\n00:00- Recording starts mid-sentence, reading “The Fire”\\n13:12- Introduces “Soldiers” [INDEX: lines by Victor Hugo, Vietnam, Orpheus, “The Kao Dai”,        Lucifer, Satan and God, Liberty and Freedom, William Blake, Canada, U.S., China,     Yugoslavia, Russia, Viet Cong, Province of Tay Ninh, U.S. dumping bombs, Isle of Jersey, passage “Orders”]\\n21:11- Reads “Soldiers”\\n22:14- Introduces “Twentieth Century”\\n22:22- Reads “Twentieth Century”\\n30:27- Reads “Stage Directions”\\n38:12- Introduces “Structure of Rime”, first line “Away from the green fist of the sleeping     \\tchild”\\n38:32- Reads “Structure of Rime”, first line “Away from the green fist of the sleeping child”\\n40:06.70- END OF TRANSCRIPT\\n \\n1.  “The Law I Love” from the “Opening of the Seal”\\nPlease note that the Howard Fink list states the reading took place in “Spring 1970”, while the interview states another (perhaps separate) reading took place on April 19, 1969.\\n\\n2 reels: 30 min 3 3/4ips, 1/4” 5” reel\\n60 min 3 3/4 ips, 1/4” 7”reel\\nPopped strands in tape 1\\n\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/robert-duncan-at-sgwu-1970/#2\"}]"],"score":5.636241}]